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A (probably stupid) Phantom Idea

MuddyGrenadeMuddyGrenade Posts: 440
edited April 28 in Mercenary Discussion

So... what if Phantom had a shotgun?
OK, OK, put the pitchforks down!
Seriously though, Phantom's biggest problem is that his health and speed don't compensate for his playstyle. He's not fast enough to stab someone and then get out (especially against higher health pool mercs), he doesn't have the health to fight someone 1v1 with the heavy pistols, and he doesn't have the resources to fight someone with SMGs.
If he had a shotgun, he'd be able to fight people easier up close, without necessarily having to get into melee range, and wouldn't have to rely on the... well unreliable hand-cannons. While I don't think Phantom should ever be without the katana, this new shotgun Phantom probably wouldn't have it. That would be a little too much burst damage, imo. He probably would switch to the normal pistols, too. Wouldn't need the hand-cannons. There would need to be a decloaking sound and duration, so that way he doesn't just delete someone's head when they try to defuse, or something.
Just an idea.

Post edited by MuddyGrenade on

Comments

  • STARRYSOCKSTARRYSOCK Posts: 1,745

    Idk what people are talking about, his SMGs are godly. The cloak means you always get the first shot, and you can pretty easily line up a string of headshots faster than the other person can even react.
    I've tried phantom out a few times since post-rework, and he felt OP af. He's basically got a guaranteed kill button now, you just have to get behind someone, which is nowhere near as hard as it used to be.

    I feel that the real problem with phantom is that people keep trying to play him as an assault merc, which he's not. Even if he doesn't fit it perfectly, there's a reason SD put him into recon. I mean, vassili isn't suppose to kill the entire team, he's supposed to annoy them, not be some all purpose slayer. Phantom is the same way. He's meant to mess with the enemy team, not completely wipe them out. Kill a medic, EMP a deployable, shoot a mine next to someone, etc. Once you realize his strength is in being able to annoy people and run away, he becomes an extremely useful merc. It just takes some understanding of how to play him. Not rushing with the katana, not standing next to the person with a pistol. Standing near cover from medium range, taking one or two people, out, popping behind cover, reloading and recloaking
    I used to main phantom before the rework. Sneaking up on people was challenging, but rewarding. Once I got used to him, I was regularly pulling in more kills than my assault mercs with far less deaths too. I barely play him now because I actually find him too easy. You just have to know how to play him.

    besides, shotguns are usually criticized because of the easy one or two hit kills they bring. The only downside to them is that it's usually easy to move out of range and fight back. But when you can't see the person to fight back, all you end up doing is pissing people off. Which is SD's reasoning for reworking phantom in the first place.

  • ReXenderTzArReXenderTzAr Posts: 131

    Crotzni and Bliskhok.

  • MuddyGrenadeMuddyGrenade Posts: 440
    edited April 28

    I forgot to say that there would be a delay between attack and decloak...
    EDIT: Fixed

  • PtilouiPtiloui Posts: 530

    @MuddyGrenade said:
    ... he doesn't have the health to fight someone 1v1 with the heavy pistols, and he doesn't have the resources to fight someone with SMGs.

    So doesn't Sawbonez, and I doubt anyone would disagree on him being one of the strongest merc. Sure he's a medic, but as Phantom, he can only rely on his weapons to kill. Phantom's issue doesn't come from his arsenal, it comes from his utility (or lack of to be precise).

  • STARRYSOCKSTARRYSOCK Posts: 1,745

    @MuddyGrenade said:
    I forgot to say that there would be a delay between attack and decloak...

    Still tho. With his current weapons, even after he starts firing there's still time for the other person to react and run away or even kill the phantom if they're lucky.

    If you give him a delay, it's basically the same amount of time to react anyways (assuming decloaking is still loud af) before you can get off a shot, so he'd essentially be back to the same issue you identified in your post, only now he can't do ANY damage in that delay. People could just run out of optimal range and you wouldn't really be able to do anything except follow them, likely into a pile of other enemies, which of course phantom isn't designed to face.

    For phantom's loud decloak, the only options are either to be far away from anyone who can hear you when you decloak, or be able to react fast enough that it doesn't matter. A delayed shotgun can't do either of those things.

  • JShug07JShug07 Posts: 41

    Nah it doesn't make any sense at all
    Uses His ability
    Gets in front/back of enemy
    Uses Shot Gun
    Gets an instant Kill

  • ArtyrimArtyrim Posts: 222
    edited April 29

    The only problem with Phantom is his katana , remove it and here you have a good merc and not a rushing "wannabe " ninja.
    But a little buff speed is welcome.
    He should be a she, or at least a skinny she-male ( is censured for real this word....)

  • GireGire Posts: 90

    God plz dont touch Phantom anymore with nerfs/reworks

  • B_MontielB_Montiel Posts: 1,126

    @Ptiloui said:

    @MuddyGrenade said:
    ... he doesn't have the health to fight someone 1v1 with the heavy pistols, and he doesn't have the resources to fight someone with SMGs.

    So doesn't Sawbonez, and I doubt anyone would disagree on him being one of the strongest merc. Sure he's a medic, but as Phantom, he can only rely on his weapons to kill. Phantom's issue doesn't come from his arsenal, it comes from his utility (or lack of to be precise).

    I've never seen people trying to coordinate attacks from a phantom + Nader/Fragger + Medic on deployables, but on paper, that sounds awesome. But your point is totally true. There'll always be a better -or at least more versatile- merc for a said situation 95% of the time. Same for Guardian, Proxy, Kira, Rhino, Bush and the list goes for pretty much a good third of the mercs available.

    I don't play Phantom, but I do like Guardian. But if I'm going for a medic session, I won't pick her without Aura, Sawbonez or Phoenix as well.

  • MuddyGrenadeMuddyGrenade Posts: 440

    Racking up those disagrees, let's go boys.

  • Mc1412013Mc1412013 Posts: 2,415
    edited April 29

    Before you hit the disslike button its an idea im not saying its a good idea and seems a little over powered at times. Its a thought i played around with. That being said

    I always tinkered with the idea of taking his emp and adding pheonix healing pulse. Remove emp ability to go through walls since nanites cant go through walls. Phantoms nanites heal/revive teammates but have limited time emp like affect on visible deployables. With exception of sparkles and possibly guardian all medics require you to be on top of downed merc to revive and all mercs need to be close to give health which puts them at a dissadvantage of getting shot down before you could heal/revive. This is where phantom could be usefull as he could be able to get closer to downed/low hp merc and revive/heal a lot easier since by the time he un cloaks he would have already healed.

    Like guardian he could do multiple simultanious revives, though i still think they should both be able to revive with out abilities. I still cant figure out logic between sparks being able to crouch down and heal but guardian cant.

    His healing abilities would have a cool down obvioulsy and his healing emp would be same as it is now a pulse limited to a max of once per cloak with a slighty longer cool down than the cloak. We dont want make the other medics less usefull so a longer cool down on the emp healing pulse as well as phantom would not get defibs or medpacs those will be reserved for aura sparkles and sawbones.

    I also thought about another idea of taking his emp and adding a snitch/heartbeat aproch to his emp
    Where hos emp would tag enemy players for a few seconds to alert teamates of ememy location

    Again just an idea i played around with

    Hey look i finaly got a sig , and nothing to put here

  • SorotiaSorotia Posts: 1,538

    The only way I can see fixing him is they need to make changes to his stealth, changes that they're unwilling to make.

  • STARRYSOCKSTARRYSOCK Posts: 1,745

    @Gire said:
    God plz dont touch Phantom anymore with nerfs/reworks

    SD reworked him because in their words, he was unfun to play against. From the complaints I see in game, he's even more unfun to play against now than ever. So I doubt this is the last we'll see of phantom reworks

  • HadronZodiacHadronZodiac Posts: 326

    @STARRYSOCK said:
    Idk what people are talking about, his SMGs are godly. The cloak means you always get the first shot, and you can pretty easily line up a string of headshots faster than the other person can even react.
    I've tried phantom out a few times since post-rework, and he felt OP af. He's basically got a guaranteed kill button now, you just have to get behind someone, which is nowhere near as hard as it used to be.

    I feel that the real problem with phantom is that people keep trying to play him as an assault merc, which he's not. Even if he doesn't fit it perfectly, there's a reason SD put him into recon. I mean, vassili isn't suppose to kill the entire team, he's supposed to annoy them, not be some all purpose slayer. Phantom is the same way. He's meant to mess with the enemy team, not completely wipe them out. Kill a medic, EMP a deployable, shoot a mine next to someone, etc. Once you realize his strength is in being able to annoy people and run away, he becomes an extremely useful merc. It just takes some understanding of how to play him. Not rushing with the katana, not standing next to the person with a pistol. Standing near cover from medium range, taking one or two people, out, popping behind cover, reloading and recloaking
    I used to main phantom before the rework. Sneaking up on people was challenging, but rewarding. Once I got used to him, I was regularly pulling in more kills than my assault mercs with far less deaths too. I barely play him now because I actually find him too easy. You just have to know how to play him.

    besides, shotguns are usually criticized because of the easy one or two hit kills they bring. The only downside to them is that it's usually easy to move out of range and fight back. But when you can't see the person to fight back, all you end up doing is pissing people off. Which is SD's reasoning for reworking phantom in the first place.

    First shot doesnt mean much against a shotgun merc or a rhino

  • STARRYSOCKSTARRYSOCK Posts: 1,745

    @HadronZodiac said:

    @STARRYSOCK said:
    Idk what people are talking about, his SMGs are godly. The cloak means you always get the first shot, and you can pretty easily line up a string of headshots faster than the other person can even react.
    I've tried phantom out a few times since post-rework, and he felt OP af. He's basically got a guaranteed kill button now, you just have to get behind someone, which is nowhere near as hard as it used to be.

    I feel that the real problem with phantom is that people keep trying to play him as an assault merc, which he's not. Even if he doesn't fit it perfectly, there's a reason SD put him into recon. I mean, vassili isn't suppose to kill the entire team, he's supposed to annoy them, not be some all purpose slayer. Phantom is the same way. He's meant to mess with the enemy team, not completely wipe them out. Kill a medic, EMP a deployable, shoot a mine next to someone, etc. Once you realize his strength is in being able to annoy people and run away, he becomes an extremely useful merc. It just takes some understanding of how to play him. Not rushing with the katana, not standing next to the person with a pistol. Standing near cover from medium range, taking one or two people, out, popping behind cover, reloading and recloaking
    I used to main phantom before the rework. Sneaking up on people was challenging, but rewarding. Once I got used to him, I was regularly pulling in more kills than my assault mercs with far less deaths too. I barely play him now because I actually find him too easy. You just have to know how to play him.

    besides, shotguns are usually criticized because of the easy one or two hit kills they bring. The only downside to them is that it's usually easy to move out of range and fight back. But when you can't see the person to fight back, all you end up doing is pissing people off. Which is SD's reasoning for reworking phantom in the first place.

    First shot doesnt mean much against a shotgun merc or a rhino

    Means something against most mercs though, lol.

    And the others if you're at a decent range

  • HadronZodiacHadronZodiac Posts: 326
    edited April 29

    @STARRYSOCK said:

    @HadronZodiac said:

    @STARRYSOCK said:
    Idk what people are talking about, his SMGs are godly. The cloak means you always get the first shot, and you can pretty easily line up a string of headshots faster than the other person can even react.
    I've tried phantom out a few times since post-rework, and he felt OP af. He's basically got a guaranteed kill button now, you just have to get behind someone, which is nowhere near as hard as it used to be.

    I feel that the real problem with phantom is that people keep trying to play him as an assault merc, which he's not. Even if he doesn't fit it perfectly, there's a reason SD put him into recon. I mean, vassili isn't suppose to kill the entire team, he's supposed to annoy them, not be some all purpose slayer. Phantom is the same way. He's meant to mess with the enemy team, not completely wipe them out. Kill a medic, EMP a deployable, shoot a mine next to someone, etc. Once you realize his strength is in being able to annoy people and run away, he becomes an extremely useful merc. It just takes some understanding of how to play him. Not rushing with the katana, not standing next to the person with a pistol. Standing near cover from medium range, taking one or two people, out, popping behind cover, reloading and recloaking
    I used to main phantom before the rework. Sneaking up on people was challenging, but rewarding. Once I got used to him, I was regularly pulling in more kills than my assault mercs with far less deaths too. I barely play him now because I actually find him too easy. You just have to know how to play him.

    besides, shotguns are usually criticized because of the easy one or two hit kills they bring. The only downside to them is that it's usually easy to move out of range and fight back. But when you can't see the person to fight back, all you end up doing is pissing people off. Which is SD's reasoning for reworking phantom in the first place.

    First shot doesnt mean much against a shotgun merc or a rhino

    Means something against most mercs though, lol.

    And the others if you're at a decent range

    Yeah but staying there long enough to get a kill but not get shredded by enemy team is still unlikely

  • GireGire Posts: 90

    @STARRYSOCK wasnt he reworked because he was utterly useless against players above copper tier skill?

  • Lord_CoctusLord_Coctus Posts: 2,345

    @teflonlove said:

    @Gire said:
    God plz dont touch Phantom anymore with nerfs/reworks

    Yes, please don't just touch him, simply remove him. :p

    Please take Vassilli with him.

    MakeMachinePistolsGoodAgain

  • B_MontielB_Montiel Posts: 1,126
    edited April 30

    @Gire said:
    @STARRYSOCK wasnt he reworked because he was utterly useless against players above copper tier skill?

    He still is. Just further annoying than he already was in public games.

    When a public game turns proper COD mayhem, a phantom stack is burying the small teamwork there could be for good, grabbing pointless kills that won't do anything to the map progression. And thats precisely a problem with him in public.

    In higher stages, there's simply no spot for him. When playing 5vs5 or even 6vs6 quite seriously, there are no spots for a phantom as he does not provide any significant advantage for the team, no matter how skilled you are. Many mercs - through different methods though - will give you better results on a same task than Phantom with his cloak and EMP.

  • PtilouiPtiloui Posts: 530

    @B_Montiel said:

    @Ptiloui said:

    @MuddyGrenade said:
    ... he doesn't have the health to fight someone 1v1 with the heavy pistols, and he doesn't have the resources to fight someone with SMGs.

    So doesn't Sawbonez, and I doubt anyone would disagree on him being one of the strongest merc. Sure he's a medic, but as Phantom, he can only rely on his weapons to kill. Phantom's issue doesn't come from his arsenal, it comes from his utility (or lack of to be precise).

    I've never seen people trying to coordinate attacks from a phantom + Nader/Fragger + Medic on deployables, but on paper, that sounds awesome. But your point is totally true. There'll always be a better -or at least more versatile- merc for a said situation 95% of the time. Same for Guardian, Proxy, Kira, Rhino, Bush and the list goes for pretty much a good third of the mercs available.

    I don't play Phantom, but I do like Guardian. But if I'm going for a medic session, I won't pick her without Aura, Sawbonez or Phoenix as well.

    I totally agree that on paper, it seems awesome. I recently watched a ranked Overwatch match of Alphacast (pure curiosity, i don't even have this game) who tested the rework of Sombra, which is quite a Phantom merc : invisibility, smg, and ability to disable opponents's ability. This hero doesn't do that much damage but they really strategically worked with her ability, especially her ult that prevent enemies caught in its radius to use their abilities during 6s.
    So when you think about Phantom ability, this is what you think about at first : disable enemy deployables and rest of your team push as you destroy enemies backlines. The difference is that Phantom is too much situational compared to his OW counterpart : if enemies don't have any deployable or too few, his ability becomes useless, while Sombra's hacking ability is universal.

    But you see the trick here ? We're talking about ability driven gameplay, when a lot of players (mostly the older ones) want Dirty Bomb more focused on aiming skill than on using abilities. It works wonders in OW because the entire game is designed around each hero's ability. It will never work that well in Dirty Bomb because the core of the game is designed around gunplay. And as you pointed out, mercs like Phantom or Guardian (but I think Hunter is concerned too), whose abilities are especially designed to act on/counter a small part of the game's content, will rarely be picked in competitive environment, in which the need of being useful close to 100% of the time is the way-to-go.

  • Actually, I think it was because of Phantom that the Crotzni was nerfed a while back.

    not sure if he needs a shotgun

    I don't actively play DB anymore but I visit these forums every once in a while. Subject to change

  • STARRYSOCKSTARRYSOCK Posts: 1,745

    @Gire said:
    @STARRYSOCK wasnt he reworked because he was utterly useless against players above copper tier skill?

    Just checked this video, seems that they hinted towards both.

    I actually brought him to ranked a few times though tbh. He was great at disabling medstation camps that were otherwise too difficult to reach, and even countering fletchers who are hot picks in ranked, though sadly that no longer works well with a pulse EMP.
    He was very situational, but I had a lot of awesome matches with him, especially since no one really expects someone to bring a phantom in ranked, lol

  • B_MontielB_Montiel Posts: 1,126
    edited April 30

    @Ptiloui said:
    So when you think about Phantom ability, this is what you think about at first : disable enemy deployables and rest of your team push as you destroy enemies backlines. The difference is that Phantom is too much situational compared to his OW counterpart : if enemies don't have any deployable or too few, his ability becomes useless, while Sombra's hacking ability is universal.

    But you see the trick here ? We're talking about ability driven gameplay, when a lot of players (mostly the older ones) want Dirty Bomb more focused on aiming skill than on using abilities. It works wonders in OW because the entire game is designed around each hero's ability. It will never work that well in Dirty Bomb because the core of the game is designed around gunplay. And as you pointed out, mercs like Phantom or Guardian (but I think Hunter is concerned too), whose abilities are especially designed to act on/counter a small part of the game's content, will rarely be picked in competitive environment, in which the need of being useful close to 100% of the time is the way-to-go.

    Increase explosive cooldown by 1.5x minimum, limit merc stacking, see how it goes and how those would suddenly have some place to shine.

    Yes, experienced people want DB more focused on gunplay. But that mostly implies, at least from my point of view, less kills with explosive, which are way too dominent right now, even on 5vs5.

    Even though the 130 hp nerfed him strongly on public, fragger is still a strong choice on ranked as he's still one of the few having access to a pretty much guaranteed kill ability. That's already 4vs5 and not to say 3vs5 very often, all due to one single explosive ability at every wave.

    Remove his implied ability to deny every spawnwave, fragger will get terrible.

    Or limit the 1 hit to kill capabilities of most explosives, results could be similar as well.

    Of course, fiddling with Phantom abilities and stats is way easier, but SD never really hit what really hurt in this game. As long as explosive/AOE abilities are this strong, you'll always see stacks of fraggers, artys, naders in ranked, with close no transfer on other strategies, reducing usage of Phantom, Guardian, Hunter... (pretty much 2/3 of the merc would apply in some way).

    This has to be said, in 5vs5 situations, Javelin shows way weaker than Fragger, Thunder, Nader, Arty and even Stocker because she has a quite high CD, and an ability which depends on how good your opponents are at forecasting and dodging. Making her and skyhammer, targets to align other explosive mercs with, at least in this very context of 5vs5.

  • l2cl2c Posts: 109

    I'd rather have ARs, to actually use this "first shot" advantage. The range-dependent visibility of the cloak doesn't mesh with shotguns and smgs very well.

  • LifeupOmegaLifeupOmega Posts: 2,071

    "How do we make something frustrating to fight even more frustrating to fight? I know!"

    Reminder that it's always okay to vote kick a sniper, no matter how well they're doing.
  • XernyXerny Posts: 79

    The only thing a Phantom player requires is patience, i've been camped multiple times by Phantoms with their Refractive Armor who sit in one spot and wait for me to pass by.

    The fact that Phantom already has an ability that makes him almost perfectly invisible and make him get up close any merc and just two shot them with melee swings or even one shot them is already an annoying thing to deal with.

    By just giving him shotguns you're increasing his two shot potential to mid range.

    His SMGs are great, if you can land headshots with them ofcourse.

    So in conclusion;
    No, Phantom dosen't need shotguns, that poor guy has been the main target on every merc discussion, give him a break.

  • Mc1412013Mc1412013 Posts: 2,415

    @Xerny said:
    The only thing a Phantom player requires is patience, i've been camped multiple times by Phantoms with their Refractive Armor who sit in one spot and wait for me to pass by.

    The fact that Phantom already has an ability that makes him almost perfectly invisible and make him get up close any merc and just two shot them with melee swings or even one shot them is already an annoying thing to deal with.

    By just giving him shotguns you're increasing his two shot potential to mid range.

    His SMGs are great, if you can land headshots with them ofcourse.

    So in conclusion;
    No, Phantom dosen't need shotguns, that poor guy has been the main target on every merc discussion, give him a break.

    I find that when my muscle memory and reflexes agree to work together as intended, starting a heavy atack followed by a few rounds works too. Though its almost never affective against a 200hp rhino

    Hey look i finaly got a sig , and nothing to put here

  • XernyXerny Posts: 79

    @Mc1412013 said:

    @Xerny said:
    The only thing a Phantom player requires is patience, i've been camped multiple times by Phantoms with their Refractive Armor who sit in one spot and wait for me to pass by.

    The fact that Phantom already has an ability that makes him almost perfectly invisible and make him get up close any merc and just two shot them with melee swings or even one shot them is already an annoying thing to deal with.

    By just giving him shotguns you're increasing his two shot potential to mid range.

    His SMGs are great, if you can land headshots with them ofcourse.

    So in conclusion;
    No, Phantom dosen't need shotguns, that poor guy has been the main target on every merc discussion, give him a break.

    I find that when my muscle memory and reflexes agree to work together as intended, starting a heavy atack followed by a few rounds works too. Though its almost never affective against a 200hp rhino

    I do not mean to offend, but you must be a madman trying to take a Rhino by yourself, especially trying to shank him with your melee, unless the Rhino is terrible, then you can shank him and shoot him constantly without much to worry, however if that Rhino is a decent player then you are probably gonna get pummeled by bullets and be hit with a long spawn.

    However the heavy attack and shoot combo is pretty effective.

  • Mc1412013Mc1412013 Posts: 2,415

    @Xerny said:

    @Mc1412013 said:

    @Xerny said:
    The only thing a Phantom player requires is patience, i've been camped multiple times by Phantoms with their Refractive Armor who sit in one spot and wait for me to pass by.

    The fact that Phantom already has an ability that makes him almost perfectly invisible and make him get up close any merc and just two shot them with melee swings or even one shot them is already an annoying thing to deal with.

    By just giving him shotguns you're increasing his two shot potential to mid range.

    His SMGs are great, if you can land headshots with them ofcourse.

    So in conclusion;
    No, Phantom dosen't need shotguns, that poor guy has been the main target on every merc discussion, give him a break.

    I find that when my muscle memory and reflexes agree to work together as intended, starting a heavy atack followed by a few rounds works too. Though its almost never affective against a 200hp rhino

    I do not mean to offend, but you must be a madman trying to take a Rhino by yourself, especially trying to shank him with your melee, unless the Rhino is terrible, then you can shank him and shoot him constantly without much to worry, however if that Rhino is a decent player then you are probably gonna get pummeled by bullets and be hit with a long spawn.

    However the heavy attack and shoot combo is pretty effective.

    I am a mad man a depressed man and a highly stressed out man. Lol

    Hey look i finaly got a sig , and nothing to put here

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