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How did the devs miss this???

Javelin does 333 damage to EV

Nader does 375 with whole round (with same cooldown as javelin)
If you add marty on that shes a better fire support to ev

And cheaper

And a better assault

And she can use her nades more sparingly unlike tiny a$$ blast every 30 seconds

50k javelin is a rip off

Comments

  • SplicerrrSplicerrr Posts: 179

    Javelin is the odd one out of fire supports. She gives ammo, but her rocket launcher can't do as much damage to the ev as an airstrike can. Just like how Guardian can't heal and Phantom can't spot. If she couldn't give ammo, she would be assault. It really just depends if you do better if Jav or Nader. But really, both are equally is good and plus, you shouldn't be bringing jav in an ev map unless you know that an airstrike fire support will be on your team.

  • HadronZodiacHadronZodiac Posts: 326

    @Lord_Coctus said:
    Javelin gives ammo, has Shar-c and an unlimited ranged missile which a single one can take down Rhino easily.

    Incorrect about that, unless its direct, itse useless against a rhino

    And direct hitting a rhino from "unlimited range" is basically 0

    Ok she gives half a clip a second, still nader is better

  • bgyoshibgyoshi Posts: 1,209
    edited April 19

    @-OCB-Wildcard said:
    ...

    Despite the truth you sell, I'm going to have to agree that Nader is objectively better than Javelin overall

    Nader has unlimited area denial which is arguably more important than manually blowing up generators. Especially when 3 Nader explosives and 1 Fragger explosive basically get the same work done on generators, end up with less ability cooldown time, and you'll always have a Fragger on the team.

    And since a Nader managing their nades with half-competence will never be stuck on cooldown with less than 2 nades, the utility of being able to area deny AND/OR kill at any given time with no drawback is just better than an easily dodged/avoided hokey doke rocket every 25 seconds.

    That's not a complaint about Javelin. I think Jav is fine. Nader's the one that needs to be nerfed, and specifically, either reduce the nades to 3 max or double the cooldown per nade.

  • HadronZodiacHadronZodiac Posts: 326

    @-OCB-Wildcard said:

    @HadronZodiac said:

    @Lord_Coctus said:
    Javelin gives ammo, has Shar-c and an unlimited ranged missile which a single one can take down Rhino easily.

    Incorrect about that, unless its direct, itse useless against a rhino

    And direct hitting a rhino from "unlimited range" is basically 0

    Ok she gives half a clip a second, still nader is better

    Okay, you clearly don't know the damage values so let's clear that up first. For the sake of reference, even without a direct hit Javelin's Rocket does 200 damage with drop-off and landing it properly at their feet still leaves Rhino with 22 HP with the Unshakable Augment; it still kills Rhino, but won't gib him, if he doesn't have Unshakable. This means that one (1) or two (2) bullets from any gun will finish off his remaining HP. If you can't hit someone with that large of a Hitbox with your Rocket that's not on Javelin, it's on the user; there is a little thing called user error, that you seem to constantly neglect as a factor from most of the posts I've seen you make, that will account for that being useless against such Mercs.

    That being said user error means it has nothing to do with the Merc, or the mechanics in question, at all; which means the blame rests solely on the players ineptitude at that juncture, this is one such case as drop-off for explosives only happens in a radius at the point of impact or detonation. A rocket will still do the same damage hitting the ground at their feet regardless of the distance it was fired from, its how explosives work in pretty much any game; it's based on a radius and functions differently from how damage drop-off does for guns.

    Nader has her place, as does Javelin, they function better in certain areas and situations but they are mostly on par with each other; also Javelins will typically run the Recharge Augment which makes her better than Nader at taking down Generators, as Nader will take a full fifty (50) seconds to completely regenerate all five (5) Grenades while Javelin only takes twenty-five (25) seconds (with Recharge) to get her Rocket back. Most Generators are almost completely destroyed with one (1) Rocket, whereas after Nader lost the ability to get Direct Hits on the generators it takes her anywhere from 7-9 Grenades to destroy one; Javelin can also easily shoot down the remaining health with any of her Primary Weapons without fear of wasting the ammo (especially with Recharge) as her Contextual Passive (her ammo generation ability) will restock her supply that she expended.

    Nader's ability currently functions more as a weaker form of Area Denial, compared to Stoker and his Molotov, and a form of quick Burst Damage against one or more enemies. The only place one can really argue that Nader is more effective than Javelin, as opposed to on par, is with the E.V.; she gets another grenade sooner, even after expending her supply, so she'll be able to churn out a quick burst of damage onto the E.V. more quickly thus making her more efficient than Javelin in that aspect. This is the only real instance where they are very clearly not equal to each other statistically, outside of this they each have their strong points and weak points.

    Aiming at feet and leaving 22 damage? Ive played enough games to know thats BS. Not surprised without facts your pulling the ITS NOT THE MERC argument :). Nader still better

  • HadronZodiacHadronZodiac Posts: 326

    @bgyoshi said:

    @-OCB-Wildcard said:
    ...

    Despite the truth you sell, I'm going to have to agree that Nader is objectively better than Javelin overall

    Nader has unlimited area denial which is arguably more important than manually blowing up generators. Especially when 3 Nader explosives and 1 Fragger explosive basically get the same work done on generators, end up with less ability cooldown time, and you'll always have a Fragger on the team.

    And since a Nader managing their nades with half-competence will never be stuck on cooldown with less than 2 nades, the utility of being able to area deny AND/OR kill at any given time with no drawback is just better than an easily dodged/avoided hokey doke rocket every 25 seconds.

    That's not a complaint about Javelin. I think Jav is fine. Nader's the one that needs to be nerfed, and specifically, either reduce the nades to 3 max or double the cooldown per nade.

    Javelin should be buffed, thats it tbh.

    I agree nader is just way better tho

  • -OCB-Wildcard-OCB-Wildcard Posts: 295
    edited April 20

    @HadronZodiac said:

    @-OCB-Wildcard said:

    @HadronZodiac said:

    @Lord_Coctus said:
    Javelin gives ammo, has Shar-c and an unlimited ranged missile which a single one can take down Rhino easily.

    Incorrect about that, unless its direct, itse useless against a rhino

    And direct hitting a rhino from "unlimited range" is basically 0

    Ok she gives half a clip a second, still nader is better

    Okay, you clearly don't know the damage values so let's clear that up first. For the sake of reference, even without a direct hit Javelin's Rocket does 200 damage with drop-off and landing it properly at their feet still leaves Rhino with 22 HP with the Unshakable Augment; it still kills Rhino, but won't gib him, if he doesn't have Unshakable. This means that one (1) or two (2) bullets from any gun will finish off his remaining HP. If you can't hit someone with that large of a Hitbox with your Rocket that's not on Javelin, it's on the user; there is a little thing called user error, that you seem to constantly neglect as a factor from most of the posts I've seen you make, that will account for that being useless against such Mercs.

    That being said user error means it has nothing to do with the Merc, or the mechanics in question, at all; which means the blame rests solely on the players ineptitude at that juncture, this is one such case as drop-off for explosives only happens in a radius at the point of impact or detonation. A rocket will still do the same damage hitting the ground at their feet regardless of the distance it was fired from, its how explosives work in pretty much any game; it's based on a radius and functions differently from how damage drop-off does for guns.

    Nader has her place, as does Javelin, they function better in certain areas and situations but they are mostly on par with each other; also Javelins will typically run the Recharge Augment which makes her better than Nader at taking down Generators, as Nader will take a full fifty (50) seconds to completely regenerate all five (5) Grenades while Javelin only takes twenty-five (25) seconds (with Recharge) to get her Rocket back. Most Generators are almost completely destroyed with one (1) Rocket, whereas after Nader lost the ability to get Direct Hits on the generators it takes her anywhere from 7-9 Grenades to destroy one; Javelin can also easily shoot down the remaining health with any of her Primary Weapons without fear of wasting the ammo (especially with Recharge) as her Contextual Passive (her ammo generation ability) will restock her supply that she expended.

    Nader's ability currently functions more as a weaker form of Area Denial, compared to Stoker and his Molotov, and a form of quick Burst Damage against one or more enemies. The only place one can really argue that Nader is more effective than Javelin, as opposed to on par, is with the E.V.; she gets another grenade sooner, even after expending her supply, so she'll be able to churn out a quick burst of damage onto the E.V. more quickly thus making her more efficient than Javelin in that aspect. This is the only real instance where they are very clearly not equal to each other statistically, outside of this they each have their strong points and weak points.

    Aiming at feet and leaving 22 damage? Ive played enough games to know thats BS. Not surprised without facts your pulling the ITS NOT THE MERC argument :). Nader still better

    You apparently have no clue what you're talking about here, it's 200 damage with drop-off and 400 for a direct hit, you can check it here on the spreadsheet if you don't believe me:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lfrz5hOUaihkviy1VIPo4-aCy7hKnMm8y7W4g269t6E/edit#gid=222941849

    The 22 damage is taking into account proper placement and the reduction from Unshakable.

    You claim you've played enough games but you clearly didn't understand a single thing about them; you've only been playing this one for barely a month you're still a newbie compared to long-time players (I've been playing since July 5, 2015), so get that stick out of your ass. If you can't handle people pointing out when you're wrong, or disagreeing with you, don't make a post at all and just leave; none of us have the patience or obligation to put up with this behavior.

    I even put facts out there in each reply and you just can't accept them, you're like a spoiled little brat who has to have his way, so do everyone a favor and put a cork in it; at the end of the day if you can't handle me putting out the raw data which has been tested, compiled, and confirmed repeatedly that isn't my problem. Ultimately everyone will have their own opinion on which Merc is better, they each have their place, but at least the others who didn't agree with me were mature enough to not behave in the manner you have; I can tell a lost cause when I see one, and I am not obligated to correct or put up with your obnoxious behavior, so we're done here.

    @Eox @Kirays If you could keep an eye on this thread it'd probably be a good idea, this could easily devolve into a discussion best closed.

    Post edited by -OCB-Wildcard on
  • bgyoshibgyoshi Posts: 1,209

    @-OCB-Wildcard said:

    @Eox @Kirays If you could keep an eye on this thread it'd probably be a good idea, this could easily devolve into a discussion best closed.

    Yeah I agree, you started slinging insults out of nowhere goddamn

  • -OCB-Wildcard-OCB-Wildcard Posts: 295
    edited April 21

    @bgyoshi said:

    @-OCB-Wildcard said:

    @Eox @Kirays If you could keep an eye on this thread it'd probably be a good idea, this could easily devolve into a discussion best closed.

    Yeah I agree, you started slinging insults out of nowhere goddamn

    @bgyoshi If you're referring to me, I wouldn't call those insults so much as calling him out on his behavior; this is nothing new from him and has gotten his forum account temporarily jailed before, namely for starting fights with people as he seems to be inclined to doing here. Besides he made a post saying he's stopped playing the game, why is he still here discussing it if he's no longer playing? He can put the argument that this isn't the game, but that's already paradoxical in nature, as his posts have everything to do with the inner workings of a game he claims to have no further interest in thus calling into question his reasons; if he doesn't play anymore why should he care? On top of that, how is his input of any significance or relevance when you consider his lack of first-hand insight into the game's current state having ceased playing? I'm likely not the only one here who's gotten fed up with him and his behavior, but I'll let those folks speak for themselves if they choose to; so if you can still tolerate trying to have actual discussions with him, more power to you but I've already labeled it as a lost cause I won't be expending energy on.

    If I was, perhaps, a bit over-the-top with my wording it's simply a product of the results I get at every attempt at a constructive discussion with him. Every single attempt has him immediately denying any form of hard data that doesn't conform to his views in almost every instance; which is something I just can't work with as he's already decided what the facts are in his mind, regardless of whether the data supports it or not.

    P.S. It is possible it was out-of-line and disproportionate to the situation, I'm not saying my reaction was justified without a doubt, and am completely open to that possibility; however his response was basically calling me a liar and already an insult to me and the one who tabulated all of the data on the linked spreadsheet, just for the record. Though I already know interactions with him rubs me wrong so I'm avoiding his future posts from this juncture on-wards, so it is unlikely to come up again.

  • HadronZodiacHadronZodiac Posts: 326

    @bgyoshi said:

    @-OCB-Wildcard said:

    @Eox @Kirays If you could keep an eye on this thread it'd probably be a good idea, this could easily devolve into a discussion best closed.

    Yeah I agree, you started slinging insults out of nowhere goddamn

    May i ask how "Not surprised without facts your pulling the ITS NOT THE MERC argument" is an insult?

  • HadronZodiacHadronZodiac Posts: 326

    @-OCB-Wildcard said:

    @bgyoshi said:

    @-OCB-Wildcard said:

    @Eox @Kirays If you could keep an eye on this thread it'd probably be a good idea, this could easily devolve into a discussion best closed.

    Yeah I agree, you started slinging insults out of nowhere goddamn

    @bgyoshi If you're referring to me, I wouldn't call those insults so much as calling him out on his behavior; this is nothing new from him and has gotten his forum account temporarily jailed before, namely for starting fights with people as he seems to be inclined to doing here. Besides he made a post saying he's stopped playing the game, why is he still here discussing it if he's no longer playing? He can put the argument that this isn't the game, but that's already paradoxical in nature, as his posts have everything to do with the inner workings of a game he claims to have no further interest in thus calling into question his reasons; if he doesn't play anymore why should he care? On top of that, how is his input of any significance or relevance when you consider his lack of first-hand insight into the game's current state having ceased playing? I'm likely not the only one here who's gotten fed up with him and his behavior, but I'll let those folks speak for themselves if they choose to; so if you can still tolerate trying to have actual discussions with him, more power to you but I've already labeled it as a lost cause I won't be expending energy on.

    If I was, perhaps, a bit over-the-top with my wording it's simply a product of the results I get at every attempt at a constructive discussion with him. Every single attempt has him immediately denying any form of hard data that doesn't conform to his views in almost every instance; which is something I just can't work with as he's already decided what the facts are in his mind, regardless of whether the data supports it or not.

    P.S. It is possible it was out-of-line and disproportionate to the situation, I'm not saying my reaction was justified without a doubt, and am completely open to that possibility; however his response was basically calling me a liar and already an insult to me and the one who tabulated all of the data on the linked spreadsheet, just for the record. Though I already know interactions with him rubs me wrong so I'm avoiding his future posts from this juncture on-wards, so it is unlikely to come up again.

    Yes lets just close this, as it went from "how could we help fragger or if hes fine" to "Yee nothing new".

    I got temp jailed because of a mod who did not look into what actually happened, it go repeal, probs because he was wrong :)

    @Kirays Lets just close this, somehow maturity declines quickly in this community lol

  • -OCB-Wildcard-OCB-Wildcard Posts: 295
    edited April 21

    @HadronZodiac said:

    @bgyoshi said:

    @-OCB-Wildcard said:

    @Eox @Kirays If you could keep an eye on this thread it'd probably be a good idea, this could easily devolve into a discussion best closed.

    Yeah I agree, you started slinging insults out of nowhere goddamn

    May i ask how "Not surprised without facts your pulling the ITS NOT THE MERC argument" is an insult?

    Did you even read your own post?

    @HadronZodiac said:
    Aiming at feet and leaving 22 damage? Ive played enough games to know thats BS. Not surprised without facts your pulling the ITS NOT THE MERC argument :). Nader still better

    You commented by saying what I said was a load of BS; which is one thing it isn't as it's based on hard facts, data and first-hand experience. Not to mention claiming it isn't based on facts is the same as calling me a liar, something that I'm amazed doesn't seem to compute for you as it isn't at all complicated to connect those dots. You just conveniently decided to ignore and/or omit the part that was actually insulting in your response here, instead of owning up to your poor choice of words, to try and play the "adult"; which is ironic because this smug, not to mention childish, behavior is what got you jailed in the first place. Also jailing is always temporary and is auto-lifted after enough time is passed if no further infractions occur during that time, I fail to see how this proves anything.

  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,755Special Editor
    edited April 22

    Why should we close what would be an otherwise profitable discussion just because two different people deserve abuse flags? I'm going to be honest, I actually agree with Wildcard here, and splicer and Coctus. The numbers are sound, the points were made, and I completely feel that Nader IS a great merc, and Javelin is a GREAT merc. And yeah... personal experience, the rocket's take a level of skill, user error is important, BUT the numbers given by wildcard were completely accurate too. Any Rhino I direct hit EXPLODES, and if it's close and the rhino didn't just spawn he's still dead.

    I also love bgyoshi's considerable input that Nader's value comes from the fact that she can have consistent area denial.

    I put forth the following: Javelin's extremely valuable presence is in the fact that she IS a hybrid. On Attack in a ranked match, you can have one Javelin on ammo and as an extra half assault (and contrary to popular belief, you do NOT have a Fragger in every match anymore) an engie, two medics, and room for whatever the last person wants to be (Assault/recon is just fine for once! She gives breathing room!). I've found that in ranked games, a single Javelin on Attack gives not only the ammo the team needs when it needs it, but is also able to handle her own in choke point firefights splendidly! Her Rocket spawns in frequently enough that she usually has it in the major points of use, and she can also use it as an IMMEDIATE doorbuster for certain things! Enemy turtle or bushwhacker setup? Healing station choked out? Rocket solves all the problems in an immediate turning of the tables. Nader has to fire several in on either of those, and if there's a Guardian on the enemy team, BOTH are screwed. But the magic? Team with a Javelin can run a Phantom easily. :)

    Post edited by Xenithos on

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • KiraysKirays Posts: 1,512Moderator

    Keep it cool, please.

    @HadronZodiac if you genuinely want this thread closed go ahead and tag me again, asking because others would prefer to keep it open.

  • HadronZodiacHadronZodiac Posts: 326

    @Kirays yeah close it, its just going from facts and logic to, HAVE U READ UR POST? like um yes...... im the one who typed it in fact

This discussion has been closed.