Underground Design Update - Issues Identified



  • @teflonlove said:
    Too easy for defenders to spawn camp via balcony

    Why not remove the balcony entirely? There is rarely something going in there that contributes to an interesting game. It's either unused, defenders camp there and lock down the attacker spawn or some dumb attacker sniper camps there without actually hitting anyone. Occasionally attackers use it to clear defenders holding the roof, but the same can be achieved using nades, air strikes and laser from the ground.

    it's such a powerful spot to have control on it, that would diffenetly change how we attack/deffend that map

  • fubarfubar Posts: 219

    Enjoy the glory that is mspaint

    Pipes. Pipes everywhere. The pipes make it incredibly frustrating for attackers to ever engage in any combat as you're constantly forced into having to jump onto elevated areas, or off, while maneuvering the map.
    They happen to be just about at every choke too. The problem with that is the fact that you're inflicting yourself with a higher spread trying to engage the defense, you'll always lose these engages to the simple fact that you're not able to shoot back - at all. Max spread vs no spread stationary position engagements is a incredibly bad map design.

    , , , , , , , , ,

    All of these areas make combat utterly frustrating to either side, pipes need to be seriously reworked, removed, or have their collision reduced. Alternative ramps leading up to them at various sections may help too, but in general any map that has had pipes in the past was always plagued by the aforementioned issues, which made it unfun and unplayable.


    Elevator is a death trap, it needs to be replaced with a wide staircase leading up the balcony. While we're at it, remove the pipes on either side of the attacker spawn exit too. They serve absolutely no purpose other than forcing an even tighter choke.

    Remove the ceiling above the balcony, or fit it with leaks/holes to allow for arties/lasers/airstrikes to be able to contest this area. Anything else is pointless, the way the 2 spawnexit chokes on the attacking side works is that you simply can't, ever, be in a position or angle that allows you to actively shoot or spam the people on the balcony without being spammed or shot at from 3 angles yourself. Allowing me to toss an airstrike up there, I can throw and forget while creating ample of room for my elevator (now ramp people) to actively contest.

    Also lower the sign on the rooftop to the point where head hitboxes will show when crouched, alternatively replace the entire section with glass. It's an incredibly awful choke to attack into given that you're at max spread (yay pipes) and literally have no info/sight before blindly rushing into that place. Allowing attackers to poke or see the rough positioning of the defense will aid this immensely.

    Widen this path, a single nader/fletcher/jav/fragger/stoker can indefinitely hold this angle with spam use at no risk what-so-ever.
    Also remove these @$!# gaps abilities fall into.


    This entire area can and should be removed. It serves absolutely no purpose. It's a 90 second "wait here and contest this pointlessly for spawn transition" area. All it does is aid in confusion to newer players that don't yet understand spawns.

    Ramps please... Or just... remove the god damn pipe already.

    Drag these stairs further out. This is another "rush blindly into a choke of sadness" scenario for the attackers.

  • SirOrionDrakeSirOrionDrake Posts: 88
    edited January 6

    Imo, from what I could observe from my
    hours of gameplay that players mostly go to the generator room. Sometimes, even with the C4 planted on the main objective... sigh
    Maybe, making the gas tunnel already clear for the attackers, and make it so that the defenders have to repair it in order to make it gassy again.

    Another solution would be making that crawlspace on the roof, just above the end of the second escalators, extend to the C4, making it another alternative to the attackers.

    From the defenders last spawn point, to the left side of the map there are some crates directly in front of the exit of the gas tunnel. Placing a sentry there is a great thing to do, but it can be shot from the generator room. Making it impossible to then would enhance the defence possibilities, as would making the sentries having more line of fire towards the main objective. The attackers still could shoot it from the other site of the map, though, and it could be done that they could shoot it from above as well, from the extended crawlspace.

    There should be a more direct way for the defenders to reach the roof. Maybe some stairs.
    Or make the roof open: air support can be suseful where it matteres and witht some battlements around it. Maybe leave it with just a estrategic cover for the defenders.

    As for them, I only have issues with not being able to jump directly from the escalators to the exit of the elevator. Which is totally understandable, but since it has been brought up, here's my 2 cents. Can't remember any other issue I had with them.

    I personally tend to focus on planting or defending on the ground level, so I don't quite use the balcony. In any case, maybe a gap from the elevator exit, as been said by some, with a walljump maybe, would solve the issues. Said jump could be provided with some direct cover directly in front of the elevator exit, so that snipers can't pick people when the doors opene.

    A more drastic approach would be making ANOTHER balcony on the opposite side. It would be quite interesting, although quite effort intensive on the dev's side. ^^'

    I may have gotten used to it, but sure, it can be confusing to new players.
    I'd suggest some sort of one-time spawn point capture, or generator repair, to make it clear for both teams that a transition is going to happen.
    (By the way, spawn point captures are great! Please don't take it away from Terminal! Add MORE of them in other maps!)

    Post edited by SirOrionDrake on
  • B_MontielB_Montiel Posts: 1,125
    edited January 6

    I totally agree about the balcony being a too strong vantage point for defenders on first objective. It mainly comes from too many sightlines on lower grounds. Maybe putting barriers/glass walls/grilling to reduce the view from the roof-balcony pass.

    There are also too few counters on a Fragger sitting there, as frag grenades are easier to throw on lower grounds, and few abilities can counter his positioning there. I'd like to see the ceiling destroyed over balcony to allow bigger fire support usage there, thus leaving people sitting there vulnerable to airstrikes, artillery and laser.

  • ArsonistCowArsonistCow Posts: 44
    edited January 7

    @SD_AK said:

    @LifeupOmega said:
    Still feel that escalators should be a one time flag cap for a moving spawn instead of the two spawn rule currently in effect. It's both more interesting (adding what is essentially a third major objective) and more informative than what we have now. Sure this isn't just visual, but it would most likely make the map less annoying to play on in the transition from first to second, and would only require a player to reach the flag and stay on it for a short duration to move on.

    Adding a new objective into the middle of the map and having it function well without re-balancing the map is a very large undertaking, as the map is relatively balanced, adding new objectives would be a large scale change with unforeseeable changes to the balance.

    It certainly could be a large undertaking, yes, but done well it will make the map a lot better. Adding a one-time capture point there makes it so clear to the players what is going on and adds an objective to a part of the map completely devoid of objectives.
    Don't go for a sh*tty bandaid fix by somehow telling players about the spawn-shift, make it a part of an objective instead. It's worth the extra manhours, bandaids almost never hold up well.

  • PorkyPersonPorkyPerson Posts: 144
    edited January 8

    Upper Floor Spawn Camping
    It seems like the biggest problem for spawn camping is that the roof and balcony can see both spawn exits simultaneously. There shouldn't be covered areas that can see all the traffic coming from spawn. From the roof you can even see people running to the elevator.

    Make it possible to run underneath the balcony on either side with no visibility from that side. Additionally, block line of sight from roof to the spawn tunnels or make it so you have to jump or stand without cover.

    Middle Floor
    Middle floor seems pretty balanced, especially since attackers start spawning there. There are three paths without line of sight, so there is crossfire and flanking opportunity.

    When you get to the lower escalator it's a little unintuitive where you need to stand to get a view down. If you stand directly at the top the ceiling blocks your view. Reducing the angle of the lower escalators would fix it, but it's not a huge problem.

    Lower Floor Gas Tunnel
    The gas tunnel entrance could be a little closer to the other paths for attackers to make rotating easier, but that would also make it easier for defenders to flank.

    Most of the action ends up being the generator room, because of the small window with good line of sight to the objective and only one flank route. You could make the gas tunnel much more lucrative by giving it cover and line of sight to the generator room and line of sight to half of the objective. You could also give it better flanking access for attackers.

  • VilhamVilham Posts: 8Developer

    Hey guys, thanks for all the great ideas and feedback, we are collating it at the moment and deciding what solutions we want to try out.

  • LifeupOmegaLifeupOmega Posts: 2,070

    @fubar said:
    Drag these stairs further out. This is another "rush blindly into a choke of sadness" scenario for the attackers.

    And don't forget that nades and such can get trapped in the walls of that corridor too :D

    Reminder that it's always okay to vote kick a sniper, no matter how well they're doing.
  • https://imgur.com/a/m6xD5

    Attacker spawn side escalators don't have safety rails. Do not take safety precautions too lightly!

  • kopyrightkopyright Posts: 597
    edited January 16

    @SD_AK said:

    Transition Area

    Spawn Transitions

    There is no clear indicator as to why attacker’s spawn shifts from above the escalators to the level below often ontop of where defenders are defending from.

    Reported by: kopyright, Dentist-svk, spookify, DrDacreamer

    Since I was among those who brought this up - maybe you could move the defenders' spawn into the ceiling area above the second escalator. The distance to cover to reach the elevator would be pretty much the same compared to the current spawn, and you could just block entrance to the lower level until X happens (attackers take a forward spawn around the elevator, hack an objective, etc.). There's already a door between the mid platform and the lower escalators, so why not put it to good use?

    However, this would also mean that the attackers lose a potential stealth route to sneak around defenders rushing up the escalator and plant while everybody else is still fighting it out around the elevator - I haven't seen this happen too often, but sometimes it works (and is extremely satisfying :D )

  • I know I’m a bit late but here’s my though on all that.

    Attacker balcony
    In the comments, a lot of people suggested to add a barrier to block the defenders of camping there. I kind of disagree. If you remove the acces to jump from the roof of the obj1 to the balcony, you will remove the acces to get ammo (without taking the elevator) who will create another problem. I Think the easiest way to fix this general problem is to replace the elevator with an escalator. By doing so, defenders would loose their interest to camp there due to the facility from the attackers to shoot them at range.

  • Rokon2Rokon2 Posts: 118

    I'll give my two cents based on my own experiences with Underground.

    Not enough opportunities for Air Support
    One of the big uses of Fire Support is to be able to do so on Objectives. However, I think that those uses should not be exclusive to just the objective. I think opening up the ceiling a bit more on the first point while keeping the framework will allow mercs like Arty to bombard the Attacker side without threat, and vice-versa. The openness also allows Kira to maneuver her death laser around more freely. I also think the cubby hole in the first point should be opened a bit more, as it is easy for anyone on top of the point to dispatch anyone inside with little opposition. Perhaps opening up some of the floorboards a bit to offer a few more LOS in various spots on the ceiling so that anyone inside has a bit more leeway in an engagement.

    Too easy for Defenders to spawn camp via Balcony
    I think an ideal change could be to remove one of the boxes sitting behind the ammo crate in the balcony, offer an entry to the balcony via Defender's lift, and remove the ammo crate altogether. This would allow a tug-of-war for the vantage point, but you cannot also stay there for extended periods of time since there is no ammunition crate to refill from, forcing you down to a teammate (or have them come up, which would be tactically advantageous for the team) or go to an ammo crate like the one in the choke opposite the map.

    Roof offers too much over for defenders
    As I've said before, I think opening up some of the floor panels a bit should offer the Attackers some LOS they can use to combat Defenders. This will give Attackers a bit more leeway in their engagements.

    Spawn Transitions
    I think placing players either inside or just outside of the completed objective, having them look at the escalators would be a good idea. Players are naturally going to go straight when they spawn, as they're confident the game will guide them along. This would let them know that there are escalators here that you can access to get across the rest of the map.

    Seconary gas route gives little advantage
    The main problem when I use this route is that I am fully exposed, as opposed to the enemy team that can hide behind the table on the point, or on the pipes by spawn. Perhaps adding a box or two would allow players to use cover. Moreover, I think adding a flanking route from the gas route to the point via a door/hallway would allow both the Attackers and Defenders to divide their team, instead of funneling the entire match to the route opposide of the gas route.

  • k3endok3endo Posts: 19

    Reported by: Pegarex, k3endo, woodchip, PorkyPerson

    Oh @$!# dats me

    In terms of what i was talking about, see @CommissarTyr excellent collection of screenshots. My main problem was on the pseudo 1.5 objective area at the escalators, in which trying to line up airstrikes are too unpredictable due to the way the light, shadows and where you can actually airstrike seem to have little/no correlation.

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