Is Phantom poping headshots out of nowhere, a fair counterplay?

TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 2,173
edited December 2017 in Mercenary Discussion

This started to bug me...
Since you can't see a crouched Phantom in his cloak, well hidden. You get random headshot from a good Phantom. TF2 Spy needs to either be uncloacked or diguised to pop an Ambassador headshot.
Whenever I do the ambush headshot, I feel really cheap. Almost like I trolled them and not played fair...

Can any comp players give it a thought?

Dirty Bomb = Lawbreakers 2.0 Electric Boogaloo

Comments

  • Phantom can only reliably kill 1 or 2 with this in pub.
    he only has 100HP and lower than usual 100hp movement speed.

    in ranked i can barely surprise buttseck somebody because with only 5 people, they will notice when im not in team fight and be ready for flanker or phantom distinct sound

    Hammock - Oh the Bliss (Reinterpretation) | Far Cry 5
                                                                    
  • Would be a compelling argument if DB was a 1v1 deathmatch game, I guess. I don't have an issue with some Phantoms getting the drop on me. It rarely happens and chances are if a Phantom is playing hide and seek or crouching in the center of a map just waiting to pick someone off, they're not playing the objective and helping their team. In all other scenarios I can detect him from the sound or disabled equipment. So, nope, don't really have an issue with it.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 84
    edited January 3

    Phantom has plenty of counterplay now. It is built into his design. When Phantom is near you, you can be well aware of his presence and predict where he is likely to be. There is plenty of counterplay.

    Let's not think about nerfing potentially the worst merc in the game. Sure it can be annoying to die to him, but if you do get headshotted by a Phantom, you usually deserve it.

  • Are you asking for a phantom nerf ? because all those 'cheap kills' you got are not because of the merc but because of the IQ of your opponents

  • c4Tec4Te Posts: 16Developer

    We will add some changes to Phantom and how his kit works in the future.

    Something I mentioned a while ago on reddit was that disabled deployables should be highlighted for team mates. That is one change but there are several others that we are discussing as well.

  • Mc1412013Mc1412013 Posts: 2,288

    @TheStrangerous said:
    This started to bug me...
    Since you can't see a crouched Phantom in his cloak, well hidden. You get random headshot from a good Phantom. TF2 Spy needs to either be uncloacked or diguised to pop an Ambassador headshot.
    Whenever I do the ambush headshot, I feel really cheap. Almost like I trolled them and not played fair...

    Can any comp players give it a thought?

    ive been told theres no nultipier for head shots so body shots and head shots are same hp

    Hey look i finaly got a sig , and nothing to put here

  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,701Special Editor

    @Mc1412013 said:

    @TheStrangerous said:
    This started to bug me...
    Since you can't see a crouched Phantom in his cloak, well hidden. You get random headshot from a good Phantom. TF2 Spy needs to either be uncloacked or diguised to pop an Ambassador headshot.
    Whenever I do the ambush headshot, I feel really cheap. Almost like I trolled them and not played fair...

    Can any comp players give it a thought?

    ive been told theres no nultipier for head shots so body shots and head shots are same hp

    What you were told is absolutely wrong. The only weapon that has same damage for body shots and head shots is shotguns.

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,701Special Editor

    @TheStrangerous said:
    Whenever I do the ambush headshot, I feel really cheap. Almost like I trolled them and not played fair...
    Can any comp players give it a thought?

    Phantom is probably one of the better balanced Mercs in this regard (his 1v1 combat preparedness) since he's a walking noise maker, it's a pixel cloak, and his EMP disables stuff letting you know he's around. Because of this it's very rare that this ever feels cheap to pull off, let alone die to in Ranked/competitive. In fact if a Phantom can reliably pull this off it's rather beautiful and refreshing in ranked. Very few teams take a Phantom in their 5 people...

    And usually if they do they're lacking in something else. However, due to Turtle and Auras and Bushwhackers/Proxies/Fletchers being rather prominent in ranked. Or at least the fact that every engineer ability is countered by him, There should really be more of him in ranked.

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 84

    Phantom has great counterplay. It's actually too much because his ability cooldown rewards high risk high reward, when his ability and how he plays in general favours flanking, repositioning and unpredictability. Such as cloaks do (I said cloak not invis) in other games like Titanfall 2 and perhaps one of the halo games.

    Phantom's counterplay actually really makes him difficult to play. You just need to practise at spotting Phantom and you'll have no trouble.

    I get a lot of cheap kills with Phantom. That's kinda Phantom's thing. You're supposed to get cheap kills, because as soon as the fight becomes a fair one (they spot you), or they have friend, you suddenly feel a lot less clever for picking Phantom.

  • JJMAJRJJMAJR Posts: 1,115
    edited January 6

    imo Phantom is terribad and would need a whole new rework.

    The idea of making his cloak a primary, especially signature ability is ill-advised because it feels like a bunch of incohesive stuff is being added to it in an attempt to make it good.

    Removing cloaking from Phantom's identity would only serve to help the character develop a cohesive and effective role.

    Phantom in general needs a serious refactoring. He just simply isn't versatile enough to justify a slot in any competitive matchup. Too much of his kit relies on close range and being the center of attention, or on enemies having poor communication and coverage, and he doesn't have the utility to back that up.

    Totes on the bushwhacker buff though. I think I want to test it out soon.

  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,806

    Revives are a thing tho

    Tbh I prefer the uncloak to attack approach but I've tried for a long time to voice that, no luck

    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 84

    Phantom isn't that bad. He's very difficult to play as and doesn't have much reward for being good at him, but I wouldn't call it irritrivable.

    Phantom doesn't need to be close range. He has a gun. He also shouldn't be the center of attention as he is at his best when he is flanking enemies who are already engaged.

    Phantom just needs some balance tweaks and the devs need to increase his ability to deal damage and to be more effective in combat compared to other recons.

    At the moment Phantom has to use his CLOAK as an invisibility ability due to the cooldown forcing a high risk/high reward playstyle. This is probably one of the more difficult issues to fix.

    Besides, it wouldn't make sense to remove Phantomness from Phantom.

    Phantom being able to line up headshots before the enemies can see him is one of the best things that Phantom can do that makes him somewhat formidable. It may feel random, but generally it is quite difficult to consistantly get those kills and it is the most reliable method of getting kills that Phantom has. It honestly isn't too hard to hunt down a Phantom most of the time.

  • WulieWulie Posts: 31

    I think, the best way to make Phantom a more... reliable source would to take away the katana from its loadouts- so the people understand, that shooting people out of cloaking is the better choice. And I feel his armament is strong enought at the moment- his SMG are of the better kind, no need to change something in there. I would recommend to inrease the duration of its cloaking a little bit, but take the EMP- Pulse away (its, sorry.. kinda useless). So he would be a reliable choice to lay C4 or disarm it.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 84
    edited January 9

    Not really... as much as it is best not to rely on the Katana, taking it away wouldn't help. If anyone is going to get one-shot with the katana one suicide proxies or Aura's or something, it's going to be Phantom.

    Though you're probably joking

  • WulieWulie Posts: 31

    I can asure you, I am not. Dont you see the same amount of Phantom- Noobs (thats not meant derogative- I really mean people who play Phantom for the.. First? time) that think, cool, a Ninja with a Katana? And usually... they dont bring much to the game. They just try to stab people and fail. Without Katana, that would get less.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 84
    edited January 9

    It's just that nobody cares about nooby Phantoms in pub games. (Or at least I don't) The main problem is that Phantom isn't that great if you are good at him.

    I mean let the noobs be noobs I don't mind easy kills. Besides the katana is useful every now and then.

  • EoxEox FrancePosts: 3,194Moderator

    Yes, it's cheap. But Phantoms doing that are incredibly rare considering the fact that most of them only bother playing with the weebstick. Anyway, maybe the Phantom rework announced by c4Te will fix that.

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 4,326

    @XSheepieX said:
    It's just that nobody cares about nooby Phantoms in pub games. (Or at least I don't) The main problem is that Phantom isn't that great if you are good at him.

    phantom bunny hopping with high ping is more scary than proxy tho.

    Hammock - Oh the Bliss (Reinterpretation) | Far Cry 5
                                                                    
  • @GatoCommodore said:

    @XSheepieX said:
    It's just that nobody cares about nooby Phantoms in pub games. (Or at least I don't) The main problem is that Phantom isn't that great if you are good at him.

    phantom bunny hopping with high ping is more scary than proxy tho.

    hah, just wait untill you see high ping kirakatanas

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 4,326

    @CyberVonCyberus said:

    @GatoCommodore said:

    @XSheepieX said:
    It's just that nobody cares about nooby Phantoms in pub games. (Or at least I don't) The main problem is that Phantom isn't that great if you are good at him.

    phantom bunny hopping with high ping is more scary than proxy tho.

    hah, just wait untill you see high ping kirakatanas

    yea but its rare to see newbie using kira

    hell, its rare to see any merc that has ability requirements of having a half brain

    fletcher? "nah i cant aim"
    kira? "nah i cant put down the laser"
    sparks? "nah i dont know how to shoot the reviver"

    Hammock - Oh the Bliss (Reinterpretation) | Far Cry 5
                                                                    
  • Rokon2Rokon2 Posts: 115
    edited January 16

    @TheStrangerous said:
    This started to bug me...
    Since you can't see a crouched Phantom in his cloak, well hidden. You get random headshot from a good Phantom. TF2 Spy needs to either be uncloacked or diguised to pop an Ambassador headshot.
    Whenever I do the ambush headshot, I feel really cheap. Almost like I trolled them and not played fair...

    Can any comp players give it a thought?

    There is no counter. You just accept it. It's by design that a Phantom charging at me down a hallway, all the while getting three-bursted several times only for him to be able to one shot you with Katana.

    Entirely by design.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 84
    edited January 16

    That should never ever happen. I know the tricks Phantom's pull and so I can always hunt them down if they try to sneak on me and if they rush, I gun them down before they even have chance to get close.

    There is definitely a counter to Phantom and its just sticking with the group and looking for signs. You can hear and sometimes see a Phantom nearby. Every time you die by a Phantom, you need to learn from that death. Sometimes just watching your team's back is enough to defend against a Phantom.

    If you three-burst headshot a charging Phantom several times I'm pretty sure they will die. Even with body shots they probably will even cloaked.

  • Rokon2Rokon2 Posts: 115

    @XSheepieX said:
    That should never ever happen. I know the tricks Phantom's pull and so I can always hunt them down if they try to sneak on me and if they rush, I gun them down before they even have chance to get close.

    There is definitely a counter to Phantom and its just sticking with the group and looking for signs. You can hear and sometimes see a Phantom nearby. Every time you die by a Phantom, you need to learn from that death. Sometimes just watching your team's back is enough to defend against a Phantom.

    If you three-burst headshot a charging Phantom several times I'm pretty sure they will die. Even with body shots they probably will even cloaked.

    Being more aware is not a counter play. That's common sense that applies to literally everyone.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 84
    edited January 18

    It is counterplay. Phantom's ability is a double edged sword. He is less visable but much more audiable. This is something introduced only by the cloak. It isn't the same as just hearing him because the cloak actively makes it easier to hear him, giving his ability counterplay. The same goes for deployables which give his position away.

    Counterplay is being able to predict what might happen when somebody uses their ability and actually being able to do something about it. For example, with rhino you can hear his minigun when it is charged so you know not to go that way and he can't fire before the gun is ready. With Nader the grenades have an arc and don't explode instantly so you have time to see them and run away. With Thunder you can see the concussion grenade and turn to reduce the effect of the grenade. And with Phantom you can hear him coming from two miles away and additionally he disables deployables when he's really close.

  • JJMAJRJJMAJR Posts: 1,115
    edited January 20

    So, the argument here is that phantom's cloak is garbage and provides literally nothing useful except against people who are flat out deaf?

    Ahem.

  • Rokon2Rokon2 Posts: 115

    I sure do love hearing Phantom walk around with all these explosions and gunfire going off. Man, maybe he should take off the metal plates under his boots, he's so loud.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 84

    "Omg what is that noise!? Is that a chainsaw!? I can't hear all the gunfire over this noise what is it!?" Aura station gets deactivated "Oh... It's just Phantom".

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