The Primary Issue With Phantom

Cloaks. Pubs hate them. Competitive laughs at them. Competitive cries with the saddening but anticipated disappointment when a cloaked character just can't perform compared to an explosive, combat-oriented monster known as Fragger, Thunder, Soldier, Demoman...

The list goes on.

So what's the big deal? Why do we have to have a cloaking character be built exclusively around going invisible?

Taking a look at these voice lines, Phantom's character being closely tied to his cloak is an understatement.

Phantom's primary problem in competitive play is that he is given a very incohesive, highly coupled role. His identity is reliant on his cloak in the extreme and this makes balancing his character difficult if not impossible.

Because of this Phantom gets utility that makes his cloak incohesive and a jumbled mess that is less of a cloak and more of a lawn sprinkler. Sitting in the arctic tundra, shooting human urine over a runway.

I think that Phantom needs to be refactored and cleaned up so that the abilities he has works together in a more useful way. Countering deployables is great and all, but I think that Phantom should not have one ability do two things that are counterproductive to each other and have that ability's effects be coupled to a certain style of play (which was Phantom's existing problem).

Decoupling Phantom from the style of play currently encouraged for him ("sneaky" moron with close range equipment) which was proven to simply not work is the best way to get Phantom off his ass and employed for once by serious interests. (Competitive.)

This is my main opinion on this matter and I might add more to it as I go.

«1

Comments

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 2,173
    edited January 6

    They tried to make him some kind of MGS3 Snake, with this weird camo system. But started out OP as THE HIDDEN from "THE HIDDEN" mod, 'til nerfed to oblivion.

    OG Battlefront 2 may have done it right, heck even before TF2 made it cool.

    If they had to copy cloak mechanic, they should've taken cues from OG BF2, not rock paper scissors TF2.
    But now, I have no idea anymore, his balance is just as messy as DB's development...

    Just my 2 cents.

    Dirty Bomb = Lawbreakers 2.0 Electric Boogaloo

  • Da_MummyDa_Mummy Posts: 235

    I think when they created Phantom they just took this random inspiration from some other game slapped it onto a mask wearing Amrican and called it a day (just a theory).
    It might sound more insulting than it probably should but I just don't get some things about Phantom in the first place. I mean why the Kitana he isn't Japanese or anything so why give him a weapon that just screams weeb. Or his character in general I guess Fragger could pass as a stereotypical american tough guy but Phantom is just beeing a douche for no reason. And we'll the EMP... I think this topic has run it's course for long enough already.
    I don't know I kinda want to like Phantom but just don't see how.

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 2,173
    edited January 7

    @Da_Mummy said:
    I think when they created Phantom they just took this random inspiration from some other game slapped it onto a mask wearing Amrican and called it a day (just a theory).
    It might sound more insulting than it probably should but I just don't get some things about Phantom in the first place. I mean why the Kitana he isn't Japanese or anything so why give him a weapon that just screams weeb. Or his character in general I guess Fragger could pass as a stereotypical american tough guy but Phantom is just beeing a douche for no reason. And we'll the EMP... I think this topic has run it's course for long enough already.
    I don't know I kinda want to like Phantom but just don't see how.

    They might as retcon/reboot te DB lore and merc bios/voice actors/abilities. All of the lore so far been made when DB was in Early Access stage.

    Besides, why can't Phantom be Italian? Like a discount Diabolik?

    Dirty Bomb = Lawbreakers 2.0 Electric Boogaloo

  • He sounds like a Italian wiseguy...would love a special edition of him in a black pinstripe suit. That obsidian card was ugly...

  • c4Tec4Te Posts: 15Developer

    We are aware of issues with Phantom and will address them with a rework soon.

    We will share more information on that once we are ready to talk about it.

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 4,318
    edited January 8

    @c4Te said:
    We are aware of issues with Phantom and will address them with a rework soon.

    We will share more information on that once we are ready to talk about it.

    wew, were going to need to test every kind of phantom ability before he come out of the beta

    just shell out every idea you have developer sempai

    Hope County Choir - Keep Your Rifle By Your Side
                                                                    
  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,697Special Editor

    Could you just imagine if when he was invisible, it was a light shimmer, no loud noises etc... but if he's behind you he gets an instant kill on Vassilis again...(like in the video?) but it's part of his cloak. His stabby katana isn't universal, and he has to switch to a different melee? Eh... just rambling here.

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,697Special Editor

    @JJMAJR said:
    ...Competitive cries with the saddening but anticipated disappointment when a cloaked character just can't perform compared to an explosive, combat-oriented monster known as Fragger, Thunder, Soldier, Demoman...

    The list goes on.

    Well I mean it definitely does when you bring in different games. Otherwise there's just Fletcher, Nader and Javelin... Rhino isn't explosive, actually Thunder barely is...

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 82

    Phantom has a cloak not an invis. Cloaks are supposed to be used to make a target difficult to track and and hard to persue. At the moment the cooldown makes playing like that quite hard.

    Everyone seems to think Phantom needs a rework, but how much do you actually play him? I think he needs a rework but not a complete redo on the whole character. He's not that broken.

    It's things like his cloak being too high risk high reward when it isn't even full invis, his inability to deal damage on even a similar level to other recons and his vulnerability whilst cloaked that are the biggest issues for me.

    The devs have mentioned marking disabled deployables and though this would help, to me it's more of a QOL improvements rather than a buff. I'm still set on the idea that Phantom should have some form of ability that he can do whilst cloaked (such as throwing knives or a snitch-like dehabilitating device). Then I feel like his cooldown could do with being reduced slightly but not too much or perhaps the energy on the cloak could be increased.

    Also all the characters compared to Phantom aren't even in the same character class.

    I just hope they don't try to focus on Phantom's more "team-oreinted" areas rather than actually making him good at killing like the other recons.

  • @XSheepieX said:
    Phantom has a cloak not an invis. Cloaks are supposed to be used to make a target difficult to track and and hard to persue. At the moment the cooldown makes playing like that quite hard.

    Everyone seems to think Phantom needs a rework, but how much do you actually play him? I think he needs a rework but not a complete redo on the whole character. He's not that broken.

    It's things like his cloak being too high risk high reward when it isn't even full invis, his inability to deal damage on even a similar level to other recons and his vulnerability whilst cloaked that are the biggest issues for me.

    The devs have mentioned marking disabled deployables and though this would help, to me it's more of a QOL improvements rather than a buff. I'm still set on the idea that Phantom should have some form of ability that he can do whilst cloaked (such as throwing knives or a snitch-like dehabilitating device). Then I feel like his cooldown could do with being reduced slightly but not too much or perhaps the energy on the cloak could be increased.

    Also all the characters compared to Phantom aren't even in the same character class.

    I just hope they don't try to focus on Phantom's more "team-oreinted" areas rather than actually making him good at killing like the other recons.

    I second this, well said.

    Ironically I feel Phantom has got worse with his latest EMP update due to the increase in cooldown, that makes the process of selecting when to use the cloak unnecessarily tedious and not worth it for what it provides. I understand it is meant to be a cloak, but in game it's so easy to spot a Phantom running or even walking, that the 'make the target difficult to track' thing is almost never real except maybe at very long ranges, and on top of that Deployables disabled make the presence of Phantom too easily known.
    And I hate how long the Refractive Armor takes to activate, goddamnit.

    What I would change (just food for thought while the devs work on him)
    Refractive Armor
    The cloak would be instant activation. Press Q and the cloaking immediately starts. Cooldown would be the same as now.
    As a plus maybe add 5% of speed while cloaked, but I'm not sure about this.
    OR
    Make cloak invisibilty and sounds like in his first release, and adjust cooldown slightly.

    EMP
    Instead of continous effect while cloaked, there would be just two EMP waves (with increased range): one when activating the cloak, and the second when exiting cloak, with effect duration adjusted (i think it's 7 seconds now, maybe maybe bump it to 8-9). This makes him harder to notice when approaching Aura stations but deadly when he attacks. The EMP when activating would be used when retreating.

    Now my crazy idea: make him a 1v1 monster.
    Get rid of EMP effect, roll back cloak to his first release and without the invulnerability to damage exceeding the health of his cloak.

  • FishRollsFishRolls Posts: 73
    edited January 9

    @c4Te said:
    We are aware of issues with Phantom and will address them with a rework soon.

    We will share more information on that once we are ready to talk about it.

    Another +5 xp for disabling deployables?

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 82

    @spectre_nc Whereas it's nice to see someone actually put some thought into their suggestion, I'm not sure if i can agree with your EMP suggestion. My thoughts are that however detrimental to Phantom it is, the EMP is an important part of his character now. This is because it has made Phantom have much better counterplay and be a lot more fun to play against.

    It also adds to the level of skill required to play him as you can't just waltz in anywhere unnoticed like would be acceptable if he had a straight up invis and probably a squishier build. All of which would all be fine if Phantom actually had something to back up his ominous aura of deployable-disabling, buzzing, Phantomyness. But in actuality, for all the forewarning you get when a Phantom is nearby, he can't actually do that much while cloaked and once he uncloaks, they generally leave themselves vulnerable or just don't have the dps or burst damage to be too much of an issue unless you get caught out.

    I definitely think his cooldown could do with looking at. With how the cloak is at the moment, it encourages Phantom to stay cloaked for longer because you can't just cloak and uncloak easily. I don't mind this, but Phantom is vulnerable and unable to do anything while cloaked. This is why I would suggest having an ability to use while cloaked.

    If the cloak was able to be used for longer periods perhaps with an offensive ability, Phantom could deal damage and remain hard to track and unpredictable and sometimes undetected before fully committing to the fight by decloaking. I've gone into more detail about this before. It's something that would give Phantom more of an edge in combat situations, without detracting from counterplay (it would slightly disrupt the cloak) or being excessively annoying to play against or cheap.

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 4,318

    @XSheepieX said:
    @spectre_nc Whereas it's nice to see someone actually put some thought into their suggestion, I'm not sure if i can agree with your EMP suggestion. My thoughts are that however detrimental to Phantom it is, the EMP is an important part of his character now. This is because it has made Phantom have much better counterplay and be a lot more fun to play against.

    It also adds to the level of skill required to play him as you can't just waltz in anywhere unnoticed like would be acceptable if he had a straight up invis and probably a squishier build. All of which would all be fine if Phantom actually had something to back up his ominous aura of deployable-disabling, buzzing, Phantomyness. But in actuality, for all the forewarning you get when a Phantom is nearby, he can't actually do that much while cloaked and once he uncloaks, they generally leave themselves vulnerable or just don't have the dps or burst damage to be too much of an issue unless you get caught out.

    I definitely think his cooldown could do with looking at. With how the cloak is at the moment, it encourages Phantom to stay cloaked for longer because you can't just cloak and uncloak easily. I don't mind this, but Phantom is vulnerable and unable to do anything while cloaked. This is why I would suggest having an ability to use while cloaked.

    If the cloak was able to be used for longer periods perhaps with an offensive ability, Phantom could deal damage and remain hard to track and unpredictable and sometimes undetected before fully committing to the fight by decloaking. I've gone into more detail about this before. It's something that would give Phantom more of an edge in combat situations, without detracting from counterplay (it would slightly disrupt the cloak) or being excessively annoying to play against or cheap.

    back then phantom armor can withstand a direct headshot with Fel-IX and not getting killed.
    but then its considered OP because that made him has HP about 130 or something

    Hope County Choir - Keep Your Rifle By Your Side
                                                                    
  • JJMAJRJJMAJR Posts: 1,115

    @GatoCommodore said:
    but then its considered OP because that made him has HP about 130 or something

    130 hp is only 10 HP less than Fragger so idk what you are talking about.

  • JJMAJRJJMAJR Posts: 1,115

    @XSheepieX said:
    Phantom has a cloak not an invis. Cloaks are supposed to be used to make a target difficult to track and and hard to persue.

    That works against pubs but does poorly in competitive.

    Cloaks rarely work unless it's full invisibility, because otherwise we have a shape that can be traced over. Even a kindergartner can color inside a faint grey outline. Phantom is a watercolor bloom in comparison. Garish, yes, but can be seen quite easily.

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 2,173

    @JJMAJR said:

    Cloaks rarely work unless it's full invisibility, because otherwise we have a shape that can be traced over. Even a kindergartner can color inside a faint grey outline. Phantom is a watercolor bloom in comparison. Garish, yes, but can be seen quite easily.

    Pffff... might as well replace it with a portable bush. Way better camo.
    Even Ralph The Wolf knows it!

    Dirty Bomb = Lawbreakers 2.0 Electric Boogaloo

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 82

    Well something I considered was the possibility of Phantom being fully invisible while stationary. I think that would put him in a better position.

    I don't think his strength should be completely dependent on his cloak as cloak effectiveness varies a lot with player skill of the opponent. Which is why I always suggest he gets an ability to support his cloak.

    Besides, Phantom's cloak is generally used conservatively as not to give yourself away, so I would have thought he'd be harder to spot than what people suggest.

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 2,173

    Now I'm beginning to wonder what SD meant with Hunter being tied to the balance of Phantom...

    Phantom with crossbow? shrugs That's what I thought initially... I can be absolutely wrong...

    Dirty Bomb = Lawbreakers 2.0 Electric Boogaloo

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 82
    edited January 16

    I have no idea. My hope is that they will actually do something interesting for Phantom and to displace the influx of people suddenly trying to play Phantom they will do the changes at the same time as hunter's tying them together somehow.

    I just worry that they will give Phantom some cheap deployable spotting ability and leave it at that. I'm a little peeved we don't get to test it before the changes to Phantom happen. As someone who almost exclusively played Phantom I would have liked to test and give feedback before the changes go live.

    Maybe they'll give him poison or dehabilitating darts or something. Im dying for throwing knives but I'd take anything that assists his offensive capabilities. I honestly feel like SD was badly scolded enough after Phantom's release that they won't try anything outside the box or Innovative whilst maintaining Phantom's current playstyle for fear of the player reaction.

  • c4Tec4Te Posts: 15Developer

    I have posted some details on reddit. We will share more in the upcoming weeks.

    • Phantom`s Cloak and EMP are not separated but the EMP can be triggered manually
    • Phantom`s EMP will change from a constant aura to an EMP Pulse
    • Disabled deployable are highlighted for team mates.
  • spectre_ncspectre_nc Posts: 7
    edited January 16

    @c4Te said:
    I have posted some details on reddit. We will share more in the upcoming weeks.

    • Phantom`s Cloak and EMP are not separated but the EMP can be triggered manually
    • Phantom`s EMP will change from a constant aura to an EMP Pulse
    • Disabled deployable are highlighted for team mates.

    Haha! Told ya! (on the pulse bit)

    just kidding

    I like the sound of this. This feels right. This feels reeeeal right. +1 if you guess the quote

  • JJMAJRJJMAJR Posts: 1,115
    edited January 17

    emp pulse that spots too plz

    :wink:

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 4,318

    @JJMAJR said:
    emp pulse that spots too plz

    :wink:

    it spots deployables.

    Hope County Choir - Keep Your Rifle By Your Side
                                                                    
  • JJMAJRJJMAJR Posts: 1,115
    edited January 18

    spots people plz
    not abilities

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 82
    edited January 18

    I hope they have more changes to show us. Though I hope they don't butcher his current playstyle.

    I mean... I never saw the EMP as the major issue.

  • SorotiaSorotia Posts: 1,498

    @XSheepieX said:
    I hope they have more changes to show us. Though I hope they don't butcher his current playstyle.

    I mean... I never saw the EMP as the major issue.

    It is a problem...makes it hard to sneak around sometimes if the enemy has a lot of deployables around.

  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 174

    I'm sure everyone in this thread is interested. Would be fascinating to see that data and interpretation, sincerely.

  • GuziolGuziol Posts: 363
    edited January 20

    Well i did buy the obsidian skin in hopes that he will be made usefull someday.

    Post edited by Guziol on
Sign In or Register to comment.