Vassili's Secondary Weapon

Vassili is by far my favourite merc, I just find him fun to play. I do however, find that his secondary weapon is too much. As a ranged merc, he should be weak in close combat and having a machine pistol that is just as strong as most of the smgs on the game isn't very fair imo.

Comments

  • Eh, the tone down the long range accuracy of pretty much every other weapon. Aside from Aura shotgun, damn near every weapon in the game can shoot extremely accurately at long ranges. The only advantage Vas has in that catagory is A. The zoom, B. the sheer power of the rifle.

    Considering the rifle is also next to useless close range, barring very lucky no scopes (since it's the only weapon that can't hip fire accurately in the game.) there is no reason he shouldn't have SOMETHING to defend himself in close range...since every other class can defend themselves at every range as well.
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  • avidCowavidCow Posts: 740
    SMG sucks at long range. You can score multiple headshots on Vassili and he'll still be at 40% health. Then POP, you just got gibbed by HS.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,694
    Eh, the tone down the long range accuracy of pretty much every other weapon. Aside from Aura shotgun, damn near every weapon in the game can shoot extremely accurately at long ranges. The only advantage Vas has in that catagory is A. The zoom, B. the sheer power of the rifle.

    Considering the rifle is also next to useless close range, barring very lucky no scopes (since it's the only weapon that can't hip fire accurately in the game.) there is no reason he shouldn't have SOMETHING to defend himself in close range...since every other class can defend themselves at every range as well.


    Except that the other classes lack a constant instant kill, abilities have cooldown, headshots do not, and headshots have no fall off.

    He deserves to be weak up close, as he dominates at anything outside that range.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • Eh, the tone down the long range accuracy of pretty much every other weapon. Aside from Aura shotgun, damn near every weapon in the game can shoot extremely accurately at long ranges. The only advantage Vas has in that catagory is A. The zoom, B. the sheer power of the rifle.

    Considering the rifle is also next to useless close range, barring very lucky no scopes (since it's the only weapon that can't hip fire accurately in the game.) there is no reason he shouldn't have SOMETHING to defend himself in close range...since every other class can defend themselves at every range as well.


    Except that the other classes lack a constant instant kill, abilities have cooldown, headshots do not, and headshots have no fall off.

    He deserves to be weak up close, as he dominates at anything outside that range.

    He also doesn't have instant kill, super massive AoE that has extremely long range, he can't two shot people up close, he can't use his main weapon up close and to get those headshots is harder than using any ability or any other weapon in this entire game.

    He doesn't deserve to be weak up close because the advantages he has are limited, at best and are exceptionally skill based and gets harder and harder to do vs decent players due to the speed of movement.

    Like wise, as I said, other weapons are not at all punished by going beyond there intended range and they don't even have to switch weapons to be effective, where Vass does and EVEN IF HE DOES go smg close, chances are he'll still lose, it just gives him a fighting chance.

    Sorry, but you have no actual basis to make a character notably weaker. His weaknesses are extremely clear when overlayed with others and he has more of them than most. If you died to an smg close then he either nailed you and finished you off which is good on him or you just completely failed at aiming.

    L2P rather than nerf.
  • Sniping isn't OP in dirtybomb.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,694
    edited May 2015
    He also doesn't have instant kill, super massive AoE that has extremely long range, he can't two shot people up close, he can't use his main weapon up close and to get those headshots is harder than using any ability or any other weapon in this entire game.

    He does have an instant kill, and it actually CAN kill two people at once due to penetration.

    And he can use his main weapon up close if you have the ability to quick scope, which a lot of Snipers do.

    And regardless of how hard it is, doesn't change the fact that Vasilli, if played right, should always be in an advantageous situation where he can constantly headshot people down.

    He doesn't deserve to be weak up close because the advantages he has are limited, at best and are exceptionally skill based and gets harder and harder to do vs decent players due to the speed of movement.

    So in other the words the Sniper has to work harder as the skill level of his enemies increases, as well as his own. And again, he does deserve to be weak up close because no other class can kill an enemy in a single headshot at virtually any range.
    Like wise, as I said, other weapons are not at all punished by going beyond there intended range and they don't even have to switch weapons to be effective, where Vass does and EVEN IF HE DOES go smg close, chances are he'll still lose, it just gives him a fighting chance.

    If the enemy has managed to get within range to actually force him to use his SMG then he should lose, that's part of how counter play works. Without a weakness up close what can people do against Vasilli?

    Sorry, but you have no actual basis to make a character notably weaker. His weaknesses are extremely clear when overlayed with others and he has more of them than most. If you died to an smg close then he either nailed you and finished you off which is good on him or you just completely failed at aiming.

    L2P rather than nerf.


    Says the guy who thinks a long range class should be allowed to be effective as he is up close, currently, the MoA, the lowest damage rifle, does 75 damage, leaving everyone, including Fragger, with 75 health or less. The machine pistols Vasilli uses do enough damage to finish people off incredibly fast up close, which pretty much means you have to nail Vasilli hard in the head to finish him quicker, which is not easy considering his speed and his health.


    Saying learn to play is pretty stupid since what exact weaknesses can be exploited? If he nails you with a body shot, you're going to lose that fight, if he's devastating with the rifle you can bet he will be with the machine pistol too. And again, nothing beats the Sniper Rifle when it comes to range. It will win the vast majority of the time in the hands of a trained player, and there's very little you can actually do against except hope the Sniper sucks.



    Also, I wanna make one thing clear, I don't think he's necessarily overpowered, but he does lack good counter play. That's just my opinion, cause the only Snipers I can actually kill are the ones who are learning it or simply suck at positioning.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • titaniumCroutontitaniumCrouton Posts: 389
    edited May 2015
    Also, I wanna make one thing clear, I don't think he's necessarily overpowered, but he does lack good counter play. That's just my opinion, cause the only Snipers I can actually kill are the ones who are learning it or simply suck at positioning.

    Bold: Discussion over then. Nothing needs to be changed.

    Italic: He has as much counter play as any other class, just because you happen to suck against him is a personal problem. I've never had any more trouble with Vas than any other character, both playing as and against him as various characters (Skyhammer, arty, fletcher and vas himself.)

    Only person I truly struggle against Vas is Aura and that is IF i am using the shotgun set up.
    Post edited by titaniumCrouton on
  • mauseummauseum Posts: 12
    They just need to adjust to stats of the machine pistols.
  • GränsforsGränsfors Posts: 15
    To counter Vassili you don't need to deal much damage to him. The thing is, any kind of damage means trouble for him because while aiming at mobile targets is already pretty hard, aimpunch can completly deny shot.

    Another thing is, unless he uses semi-auto sniper rifle it takes a short while for him to reload between the shots. That's your chance to advance towards him or get throught open spaces under his line of sight.

    Doing quick-scope during close range fight is usually either luck or your lack of skills in terms of movement. Dying to him while he uses only his secondary to put you down is your lack of skills in terms of aiming.

    About insta gibbing: Considering the fact that Dirty Bomb is very fast paced game with lots of mercs having high mobility you can't deny the fact that landing a headshots on mobile and competent targets requires some skill. In fact, sniping here usually requires much more skill than any other combat style / ability. Combine that with the fact that most of the time people don't do solo runs and there might be medic around. What's the problem with that, you might ask? Well, let's just say you've got situation like that:
    You've spotted enemy Proxy going throught open space. You decided to shot her, but due to her high mobility and player's skills you only managed to land bodyshot which somehow took her down. In time of your reload (let's just say you, like most of the players, use bolt action sniper rifle) random Aura player jumps from behind the cover and picks proxy up. Now you end up with one highly mobile and skilled target who's also currently invicible for short peroid of time and second, even more mobile target who's on their way to the cover already.
    Now you see? It's not easy to pull out insta gib and Vassili's bodyshot kills can be easly denied since it's fast paced, TEAM based game.

    Another thing: Vassili is purely combat merc. Yes, he does have heartbeat sensor which can provide some support for his team, he can also guard some points and cover his teammates from afar, but his whole character is built around spotting targets and putting people down (usually high priority targets thought). He can't heal people, he's not suited for CQC so he can't lead pushes for objectives, he's not an engineer which makes him bad choice at defusing, planting, constructing and repairing, he can't supply his teammates with ammo nor other kinds of goods (except to the enemy positions, just as mentioned above). He, just like Fragger mainly needs to focus on killing people. Due to his high skill = high reward style and the fact that other mercs can close up distance to his positions as long as they are competent which makes his main weapon pretty much useless in many high level, combat scenarios he SHOULDN'T be nerfed in terms of killing potential. In fact, he's currently one of the properly balanced mercs.

    Yes, I do admit I play Vassili a lot, but I've also came against many Vassili players, including high level / skilled ones and I must say I never had a problem with being killed by them because I knew if I did get sniped, it was because I took wrong route, I wasn't paying enough attention or it was simply because of my lacks of skills. If you want to have character like him to be able to actually mainly use long range, high precision weaponry while mantaining his reliability, you shouldn't nerf him. With so many ways to get around the maps, very highly mobile characters, many CQC points it makes things clear: If he sniped you, he deserves the credit for the kill. It didn't happen because he's overpowered. It might happened because you're not as skilled as you might think or he just outplayed you.

    And to make sure you understand that my post is actually on topic, in short: Vassili as merc specialized in killing and spotting enemies should have reliable, personal defence weapon to have any chances to fight on close ranges because he already has pretty hard time dealing with at least decent skill level players. Also, due to high mobility of many other mercs and map designs it's nearly always possible to advance to his position and put on close range fight, at least as long as you're competent player and have enough brains to check if the enemy team has sniper before going throught open spaces.

    Cheers.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,694
    Gränsfors wrote: »
    With so many ways to get around the maps, very highly mobile characters, many CQC points it makes things clear: If he sniped you, he deserves the credit for the kill.

    I wanna highlight this part because this is the main brunt of the problem, if he did get a headshot on me, even up close, yes, he deserves that kill, absolutely. But if he misses, or just gets a bodyshot and tries to finish you off with his secondary, that is an issue.

    Regardless of how you try to spin it, the Vasilli in question didn't have the neccessary ability to land the shot and get the kill, so he does not deserve to win a fight up close then, at all.

    He should be weak enough up close where this scenario becomes more consistent, but how to solve this problem is incredibly tricky.

    The Fe Lix, I feel, should definitely at least be strong enough to kill Rhino with a headshot, assuming they balance it to have the proper downsides. The question is, how much damage should it do? How much damage should rifle headshots do? What about the machine pistol? Should it be nerfed, or is the problem Vasilli specifically and not the gun itself?


    These are things I think need to be looked at, because again, the problem isn't that Vasilli is overpowered, the problem is that even if he's subpar, the combination of his rifle and his sidearm is enough to make up for lack of ability on his part. Meanwhile you have to kill him with less health than you normally would, because 90% of the time Vasilli will get the first shot off, and it's enough to put most mercs at half health, giving his secondary an incredibly fast ttk without even factoring in headshots.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • Zeus33rdZeus33rd Posts: 25
    As a Vassili obsessed player...I get killed by hammer strike things, grenades and kira's laser air dick, more than bullets, by far. The way a sniper SHOULD be taken out, or by another sniper. As a sniper, if you get close enough to me to where my primary weapon isn't appropriate, then two things. I have failed at my job as a sniper, in some form, and should pay the price for it. And 2...If I hit you once, with no HS, you prolly gonna die anyways, cause after that, it's easy enough to switch to pistol or sub machine gun and mop up. I prefer revolver over machine gun. If you can get good enough to hit head-shots consistently, then Vassili is one of the most powerful combat multipliers in the game. I don't pull it off very often, but I have saved objectives/matches with 4+ back to back headshots, where they were needed. Problem is...few people want to play the role a sniper is best at. It's a lot of work, takes time to get really good at and the consequences of failure are larger. Skill cap is high with this one.
  • mf-mf- Posts: 15
    edited May 2015
    I don't have any issues with Vasilli having a strong secondary weapon. Not sure why people think because he is strong at long range, he has to be useless up close.

    Having a strong secondary allows him to play offensive with the rest of the team, instead of sitting back and just pot shotting the occasional person that runs past his view.

    I think its just a stigma that snipers should be weak in close-range due to other games. Up close is his a low hp, medium dps character that should be out-dueled by anyone with a similar skillset.

    You don't deserve a kill on Vasilli simply for having the skill to get close enough to him.. Like everything in this game, you deserve the kill for landing your shots. If you are being out-dueled by machine pistol, land dem h3adshots!
  • CCP115CCP115 Posts: 1,426
    A good Vassili can completely lock down a team, and from incredible range as well. Trainyard second C4 for example. So much open ground, and he can keep sightlines on quite a bit of it.
    I dunno, maybe just give him a pistol or something. Not an awfully big change, as pistols are still deadly, just require much more skill than an SMG.
  • It's a pocket M4A1 with no spread!

    In general the automatic sidearms are a bit too whacky with DPS, there is literally only a 12 DPS difference in bodyshots between the MP400 and the M4A1....

    By all means, these pistols should spread like crazy, and not be so accurate.
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