Nader Thoughts

13

Comments

  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    it would make more sense some kind of emp granade to destroy a healing station......

    That would be an awesome power. Something to shut down turrets, stations and vassili's sensor, etc...
  • TerrTerr Posts: 30
    Temporary gadget shutdown would be a neat Phantom ability, to get past mines etc...
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    It's easy to blow up a healing station with bullets, sure.

    Unless it's in cover. Unless someone stands in front of it. Unless you get shot first by the guy watching it. Unless there's two of them. Unless ... You see where I'm going with this?

    We've tried this out before. Earlier in the Beta, when a lot of people didn't even have Fragger ( and Nader wasn't in yet ), do you know how much of a pain this was?
  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,165
    snowMonkey wrote: »
    It's easy to blow up a healing station with bullets, sure.

    Unless it's in cover. Unless someone stands in front of it. Unless you get shot first by the guy watching it. Unless there's two of them. Unless ... You see where I'm going with this?

    We've tried this out before. Earlier in the Beta, when a lot of people didn't even have Fragger ( and Nader wasn't in yet ), do you know how much of a pain this was?

    truth be told, we also didn't have red auras for enemy healing stations, making them harder to identify&spot.
    First!

    48px-First_Blood.png?version=ee44701eadae9f5eb7db0d17c0edc6c9
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    Szakalot wrote: »
    truth be told, we also didn't have red auras for enemy healing stations, making them harder to identify&spot.

    I'm not sure that's as important when three enemies are camping a healing station and you want to, you know, remove them.
  • HazzyHazzy Posts: 29
    Hi,

    Iv played the nader for about an hour now, dont really like the merc personally to play with. Do think its a good merc for crowd controlle to push back the people. BUT on the map with the 2 containers (have no idea what its called) a nader or 2 can just spam the objectives and its impossible to eather set the bomb or defuse the bomb, so maybe less nades to shoot and a higher cooldown time to make it less OP in these cases. Still, its not to easy to shoot people from a distance and get kills upclose he is OP but youl have to learn that you have to stay away from him.

    Secondly the marty drop.. now that is can be OP! Since the can just lay there and choose when to set off the marty. There is no chance in hell you can ever knife a nader for a finish and no chance to get away from them if the drop it cause it goes off in less then a second. The can even lay there and wait for some 1 to come around the corner and pick out a kill. (yes this has happend..) Suggestion of myn is to make the marty drop so that the have to choose before the die if the want to use the skill and if the use it, it drops instantly on death or a time frame of 3/5 seconds to use when your haf death on the floor instead of a unlimmited time to use it.

    Just my 2 cents :smile:
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    pinkRoad wrote: »
    Hi,
    Secondly the marty drop.. now that is can be OP! Since the can just lay there and choose when to set off the marty. There is no chance in hell you can ever knife a nader for a finish and no chance to get away from them if the drop it cause it goes off in less then a second.

    You said you'd played Nader for an hour. Which is probably why you're so wrong about this. Because the window for gibbing Nader and preventing Martyrdom is actually extremely generous. It takes something like half a second from going down before it can even be triggered, and it's canceled if Nader is gibbed before it goes off. If you're close to Nader when she goes down, you can easily pull out your melee weapon and finish her off, and still have time to spare.
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    snowMonkey wrote: »
    It's easy to blow up a healing station with bullets, sure.

    Unless it's in cover. Unless someone stands in front of it. Unless you get shot first by the guy watching it. Unless there's two of them. Unless ... You see where I'm going with this?

    We've tried this out before. Earlier in the Beta, when a lot of people didn't even have Fragger ( and Nader wasn't in yet ), do you know how much of a pain this was?

    So if the point of a Nader is to blow up healing stations, there is still no reason for a lac-40 to inflict 80HP of damage! If it's about destroying the station then 20HP damage is enough as aura's station takes increased damage from explosions. In the end if Nader is supposed to be a counter to Aura, then making it so that a single lac-40 can destroy a healing station plus oneshot any aura's in the vicinity plus leaving other mercs low happy for you to come in all by yourself and get a quad kill, that's just ridiculous.

    I understand the need for a nader to destroy a healing station but then it should have to still fight a regular fight against the surviving mercs. Right now, Nader is able to get multi kills over and over...

    Now you also say that trying to remove a group of people from a healing station spot is a pain, but that's how it's supposed to be. As a single player you shouldn't be able to kill three or more people camping a healing station! Now even the ods, add a healing station close to your offensive position and be three people attacking at the same time and you'll see that destroying the healing station isn't as bad or a pain as you would like us to believe.
  • Gi.AmGi.Am Posts: 928
    Naders point is not blowing up the healing stations.
    She isn't a support!

    Well technicaly she is... fire support, means she supports by killing.

    She is a damage dealer like fragger. Her whole point is to thin out the opposing team so that her mechanic has a higher chance reaching the objectives. And while fragger is better at killing a team that is mobile and spread out, nader excels at breaking down turtled up opposition (which also means destroying healing stations, mines and turrets).

    The only ones that should be able to oppose her, on a 1 on 1 basis are other fire supports (and snipers on long range).
    Her mechanics are quite fair tho. Sure if she gets you with the nadelauncher you lose most of the time. But if you get past that or flank her or catch her on cooldown. You will have atleast a fair fight if not the upper hand by default (she is weaker than sawbones after all). Thats more than a Fragger gives you :wink: .
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    @satisfyingCove

    I'm getting bored with this. If Nader completely dominating the enemy team is as common as you say, show us some screenshots. Give us some examples of this happening.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,688
    That might not work, because that's really dependent on the skill of the player. And a lot of people kinda need to man up and learn how to play.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    If Nader completely dominating game after game is as common as is being claimed here, it shouldn't be a problem at all.
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    @snowMonkey

    Nader is OP, if you don't realize it, too bad. But by the time the next update comes out, the ECHO system will have shown the devs that there is an unhealthy kill ratio tipping in the favor of Nader and the'll nerf her... So in some way this conversation is mute.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,688
    edited May 2015

    Nader is OP, if you don't realize it, too bad. But by the time the next update comes out, the ECHO system will have shown the devs that there is an unhealthy kill ratio tipping in the favor of Nader and the'll nerf her... So in some way this conversation is mute.


    Heh, classic

    I'm right you're wrong, I'm not even gonna argue against you because in reality I have nothing to back up my arguments.



    First of all, let me explain to you the definition of overpowered, that term is reserved for something that literally controls the game's meta, and more importantly in a negative way.

    Perfect example, the Wrangler in TF2, an Engineer unlock. It replaced the pistol, which was already nigh useless, and gave the Engineer increased DPS and a shield for his sentry while he could manually control it.

    However, people though it was ok, because most people didn't know how to use it right, while people who were plenty competent with it basically stopped the game.

    Now, does nader spam stop the game? No, if anything, I wanna see these so called games where it actually is a serious issue. Because the reality is, if there's more than one of any Merc it's technically class spam, and that is an issue that can't be fixed without class limits. Why nerf a single Merc because too many of them is an issue? You can't control that, that is a player choice.

    So, the next thing is to introduce viable counters, and right now, the only thing I'd say that doesn't have a viable counter are cooked grenades from Fragger.

    You want to counter Nader? Learn to dodge, learn to aim, that simple. With as light on health as she is and as accurate as weapons can be in the right hands you have no excuse. Learn to play before crying wolf and expecting a nerf. Because in my opinion, none of the mercs are op, just certain aspects need to be tweaked, like how many times I can be revived in a row, or whether or not I should be able to cook nades or not.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    First of all, I refer to you to all my previous posts in this thread as to why Nader is OP, sorry if I get bored when I'm forced to repeat myself.

    Then, Fragger's cooked grenades are not a concern as he has only that as a power.

    Finally how are you supposed to counter a lac-40 to the face as Aura. It's insta kill, with little to no skill required from Nader. Even a sniper requires to aim properly to get an insta-kill.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,688
    Finally how are you supposed to counter a lac-40 to the face as Aura. It's insta kill, with little to no skill required from Nader. Even a sniper requires to aim properly to get an insta-kill.

    By not sucking at dodging

    If you are moving left and right, and that's it, or running in straight line, YEA, you are going to get hit.

    You're playing with people who've been playing Quake and Enemy Territory for years.

    Don't even pretend like the majority of people who play Nader and land directs are noobs, you can tell someone isn't great with her when they are firing as fast as possible.

    If they are taking time to actually hit you with directs, it's not skill less, they are watching your movements.


    Plus, again, Nader shuts down Aura, Bushwhacker's Sentries, the EV, and even Proxy, but she can still survive with 10 hp.

    Saying it takes no skill implies little effort, but getting directs on the fastest class in the game right now.....no, that takes some skill, despite what you think.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    @majesticClue
    Don't grenades also take time to arm? If you're too close, it's only like 20 damage.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,688
    edited May 2015
    snowMonkey wrote: »
    @majesticClue
    Don't grenades also take time to arm? If you're too close, it's only like 20 damage.

    Fragger's?

    Yea but the thing is you can cook behind cover then walk out and toss them, and the victim has no clue that they were in danger.

    To me, I feel like if Fragger lost the ability to cook nades he'd still be fine. His health and weapons allow him to deal fantastic damage, at least in my experience.


    Nader's you can't arm, it's fire and forget, but they have direct hits.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    @majesticClue

    Nader's. Fragger's ability is impossible to miss with if you know what you're doing. Much more efficient than Nader's.

    I mean the grenade launcher: If your target is too close, the grenade doesn't detonate on impact - or does it?
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,688
    I....actually am not sure....

    But I typically try to make directs at targets who are about, I would say 10-15 feet away, otherwise if they are close I just blaze bullets to their face.


    You might need to ask someone else
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    Yeah. I agree with you, though: Unless enemies are stationary, direct hits are difficult.
  • ZenityZenity Posts: 438
    This thread is becoming a bit ridiculous to be honest. Everywhere else the only Nader related discussion is how she can be buffed to perhaps make her at least a little bit viable, yet here you are having a serious discussion about how OP she is.

    The developers know the truth, not just because of Echo. So like you said, there is nothing more to discuss about this and if the devs actually end up nerfing her, we'll all happily eat our hats. :)

    And no, her grenades do not explode on direct hit in close range. There is a sizeable delay before her grenades are primed, which is generally always enough time to dodge it unless you get stuck somewhere, or the grenade was shot brilliantly over a long range.
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    @snowMonkey & @Zenity

    There must be a bug! I saw the Nader introductury video and also everone seems to agree that if shot at someone from too close the lac-40 will drop to the floor and have a delay. This is however not the case! And that is what I call a no skill kill. When a Nader oneshots me from a distance with a lac-40, yeah that's skill, but when it happens at a distance where a shotgun would be the most efficient tool, then that's a bug.

    I have yet to recieve a direct close quarters nader grenade that wouldn't immediately exlopde as advertised. I guess I'm off to the bug reporting forums...
  • SchwaDSchwaD Posts: 78
    the problem of nader is not that she is OP. I think she is well balanced. The problem is that her spammy nades are so annoying.

    I think most of the people playing this game will have a competitive game where skill compared with great teamwork will lead to success.

    Making this game to a explosive festival will ruin it.

    I am pretty sure that nobody will complain when MP's and all the normal weapons will be the main part of this game and all the explosives are only additonally to block an attacking wave or maybe reduce the wave if they are inattentive.

    Hopefully SD will find the right balance between the skilled part of the game using the weapons and the other part of the game using all the special abilities like stationary gun, mines, grenades & grenades launchers and all the other things which will be released.

    If the spammy part of this game will get to big / to important for win the matches, sooner or later I will loose the fun of the game and will quit it (;

    I think limiting every merc in MM to 1 per team is a good start. Maybe later on when some hundreds MM's or cups are played the as OP identified special abbilities should be nerfed. At the moment or by public play its not really possible to fint out what is OP cause the skill of all the players are so different and a good player can be OP with nearly every merc.

    Hopefully this game will not end like another TF2 (:
  • ZenityZenity Posts: 438
    @snowMonkey & @Zenity

    There must be a bug! I saw the Nader introductury video and also everone seems to agree that if shot at someone from too close the lac-40 will drop to the floor and have a delay. This is however not the case! And that is what I call a no skill kill. When a Nader oneshots me from a distance with a lac-40, yeah that's skill, but when it happens at a distance where a shotgun would be the most efficient tool, then that's a bug.

    I have yet to recieve a direct close quarters nader grenade that wouldn't immediately exlopde as advertised. I guess I'm off to the bug reporting forums...

    I've played Nader long enough to know that it works as advertised, the grenades are completely useless in close combat. I also never encountered a Nader blowing me up from close range. Frankly I think that your problem must be lying elsewhere.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,688
    Zenity wrote: »

    I've played Nader long enough to know that it works as advertised, the grenades are completely useless in close combat. I also never encountered a Nader blowing me up from close range. Frankly I think that your problem must be lying elsewhere.

    Perfectly fine with me since the Crotizini is awesome :)
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,165
    @Zenity @snowMonkey @satisfyingCove @majesticClue
    so to clear out some of the 'facts' that have been mentioned so far.

    - direct hit deals 90-95hp damage. It kills Proxy in one hit as well (not just Aura). It should be 80hp damage from the explosion, plus 10-15hp 'blunt' damage of the projectile hitting your face
    - there is a minimum distance the nade has to fly before becoming primed and exploding on impact. If you are to close to your enemy, the direct hit will deal the 'blunt' damage, but the nade will bounce off and explode after the fuse expires. The distance isnt that large, but its significant if the nader is being charged/ambushed
    - close combat is where the nader is the strongest! However, she needs the enemy confined to a choke, as otherwise dodging nades becomes too easy. If you engage nader in close combat either get close enough for nades to be unviable, or gain some distance/open area to be able to dodge the nades
    First!

    48px-First_Blood.png?version=ee44701eadae9f5eb7db0d17c0edc6c9
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    @Szakalot

    Unfortunately right now the distance the nades need to fly to be primed is almost non-existant.

    Also, now that I really think about it, why do the lac-40s explode on direct impact with a person but ricochet when hitting a wall? It should be either or. Not just using whatever goes towards the naders favor.

    Although Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2's grenade launcher was OP it was at least consistent. If close it wouldn't explode on impact, be it an enemy or a wall. While on distance it would always explode on contact.

    Right now the lac-40's alway ricochet of walls and they only explode on contact when direct hitting enemies past a certain distance cap. In my opinion should be all or nothing...
  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,165
    who cares about realism? it allows nader to fill in more than one role
    First!

    48px-First_Blood.png?version=ee44701eadae9f5eb7db0d17c0edc6c9
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    So according to your logic it would make perfect sense if Aura's station would electrocute enemies, paralizing them and inflicting damage. I'm sure if we pull our heads together we can come up with plenty of different ways to make all other mercs have more than one role in the most overpowered way possible! Let's all take a seet and have a go at it, shall we?
Sign In or Register to comment.