Nader Thoughts

24

Comments

  • vdllvdll Posts: 384
    Getting killed by a random nade spam is truly annoying (way more than being killed by precisely cooked nade), but I don't think this class is game breaking. Same as Demo in TF2 -you can play him spamy-nooby way, but to be effective against decent opponents, that takes skill and practice.
  • Honestly I haven't played against many fraggers since I only play execution mode. I might change my view on them if they get more popular in execution. When I meant game ruining I should have said it was game ruining for me. Other people may not mind them as much but the reason I don't play tf2 is because of how popular explosive classes are.

    When I die I want to know the reason I died was because I screwed up not because Joe felt like lobbing random nades over and over hoping he chooses a spot with a player in it. I'm getting those Nam flashbacks from the days when I used to play CoD and every round started with "who's the lucky person to not get hit by a nube tube at the beginning of the round this time".

    This game has so much potential and to me it feels like them adding explosive classes is going to hurt the game more than help it. Some may find it fun but what's the point in playing this compared to tf2 if we're just going to go down that road anyways? Don't get me wrong this is a thousand times more fun than tf2. In a weekend I hit lvl 7 and I can't wait till I get home from work to play i just hope they carefully consider what kind of competitive path they choose.
  • vdllvdll Posts: 384
    edited May 2015
    I hear you, yet 99% of time you die because you screwed up at some point. Wrong positioning, picking the bad fight, potato aim - after all, you could've possibly avoid the peril with some effort. Realising it helped me rage less about unfair game mechanics or cheap tactics. A little.
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  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,166
    Whatcha talking about?

    Non-direct-hit nades are extremely easy to dodge, and it takes forever for them to explode. Hell, they've been easy to dodge back in the day when they exploded sth like 0.5 faster.

    You DID @$!# up if someone is randomly lobbing nades and you can't dodge.

    You also often DON'T @$!# up, and yet the opponent will land triple headshots mowing you down instantly.
    First!

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  • Yeah that's how I started enjoying other games. I don't mind getting outgunned at all. Especially getting head shot by Vis I usually just compliment the guy in chat. If you can outgun me I'll bow to you, adjust my tactic and try again. I love finding rivals >:D

    @sza Funny because you were the guy randomly nading over walls. Figures you'd get upset and try to defend your "tactics". Everytime I played against you you were using the class too. It seems you found your "tactic" and don't want it taken away.
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    Szakalot, you're all right.

    I agree, absolutely. Lobbing grenades over a wall ( say on the last point on Chapel ) is not random. It's easy to make the grenades land in the spot where people always gather. It's smart to aim for that spot, and others like it. It's called area denial, and is not just perfectly valid, but completely essential.

    If you constantly die to grenades that just appear out of nowhere, consider the possibility that they either saw you without you noticing, or you broke a mirror at some point and have been cursed with bad luck. Because that's statistically impossible.
  • The Nader is not over powered if anything she is under powered here nade regen is to long.
  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,166
    Nade regen is fine. Nader is just too vulnerable to good shooting. Its very dangerous to pull out the grenade launcher against good players, as they will mow you down, even if you score a direct hit.

    If i know someone is good, I'll either lobby AoE from cover, try to get direct hits around corners like Q3 rocket launcher, or lob the nades at them when they don't see me. If its a really tight corner you might be fine spamming nades, otherwise pull out that SMG.
    First!

    48px-First_Blood.png?version=ee44701eadae9f5eb7db0d17c0edc6c9
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    Nader is definitely OP, maybe one nader alone shoots 4 nades and then that's it for a while, but if you have a couple or 3, let alone more of them, then it turns into a shower of nades all over the map and there is nothing you can do. On top of that, martyrdom grenade is just overkill as she already has a very good power.

    Even 4 skyhammers aren't as bad as one can alway see the marker and have plenty of time to escape.

    The problem with nader being that her power is exponential with the amount of players using it. Any other merc doesn't improve the team when using many of them. This is why we need a merc to stop naders in their tracks.

    Now, I wouldn't mind leaving nader as is, but we need a counter pick merc for her and that would be an engineer with an explosive denial station. Kinda like aura's station, but just designed to intercept grenades and lac-40's in that certain area, airstrikes and bullets could still take it down. Because I don't see Fragger as that OP and Nader is defenitely not the way to go against it.
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    The problem with nader being that her power is exponential with the amount of players using it. Any other merc doesn't improve the team when using many of them. This is why we need a merc to stop naders in their tracks.

    I can't even begin to explain how wrong you are.

    Szakalot! SZAKALOT. You're needed!
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,694
    After playing with Nader, all I can say is this

    She feels really, REALLY good, like a light Fragger, but not nearly as difficult to kill imo

    Honestly tho, I feel like her Nades should gib on direct, NOT aoe, direct, as in you nail the shot, you get the gib. I feel like that's all she needs to really be force to be reckoned with. That and maybe the directs need a damage buff, I find Skyhammers to be surviving direct hits, unless that's intentional, how much do they do right now?
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • ReddeadcapReddeadcap Posts: 1,281
    My thought is that she lacks health, maybe 125-135 seems fitting for her, making her durable like other assault types but not nader/thunder durable, while she lacks the range damage and ammo capacity of an lmg, she makes up for it with her grenade launcher and its versitility, maybe even more so than Fragger's grenades, along with that maybe 2 grenades more to top off her 6 cylandered grenade launcher.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,694
    Only if she gets a speed nerf with a health buff, you're basically asking her to be fragger with more speed with 120 health or more, she def doesn't need that. Her primary does pretty good damage as is, her nades should just gib on direct, otherwise what is the point?
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • ReddeadcapReddeadcap Posts: 1,281
    Only if she gets a speed nerf with a health buff, you're basically asking her to be fragger with more speed with 120 health or more, she def doesn't need that. Her primary does pretty good damage as is, her nades should just gib on direct, otherwise what is the point?
    Obviously with a speed nerf tied to it, I just thought of her being slower and tankier like Fragger, Thunder and Rhino, but the least tankiest of them all, made up for her higher aoe damage and versitility, in Fragger's case he can pop his grenades mid air by cooking them, Thunder can only stun/blind with his and they dont have a long fuse and Rhino has no grenades, making up for with his 200 hp and minigun, making him the reverse of Nader, still I think she needs a bit more health than other character classes due to her being an assault.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,694
    120 health would be more than enough in exchange for speed, but as I said before I really don't think that's the issue. I really feel that unless direct nades can gib you'll never see her used outside of a pub.

    Especially if direct nades work on downed players, direct hits instantly finish people off making her an excellent clean up character.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • hotpinkReelhotpinkReel Posts: 19
    Direct nades already gib most light classes. They do 80 damage a pop.

    If she could one shot every class with grenades, that would just be broken. Two is a fine number.

    Nader is fine where she is, I think.
  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,166
    Direct nades already gib most light classes. They do 80 damage a pop.

    If she could one shot every class with grenades, that would just be broken. Two is a fine number.

    Nader is fine where she is, I think.

    I've never seen a nade gib anyone! they one-shot-kill light classes, but they don't gib them.

    Oh and I was wrong, a direct-hit nade deals 90HP damage.

    @snowMonkey

    Actually, on a 8V8 server many classes do benefit greatly from multiples. If people know what they are doing, be it 4 proxies, or 4 naders, or 4 fraggers, or 4 bushwhackers; it will all require a specific enemy setup to counter (4 proxy/aura/bushwhackers require multiple fraggers and naders to blow their stuff up).

    As it is now, 8v8 is really spammy, and even though a single nader is balanced, 4-5 per team is a huge spam fiesta. Its easy to dodge 2 nades going your way, but 6 nades flying from different directions becomes very hard.
    First!

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  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    snowMonkey wrote: »

    I can't even begin to explain how wrong you are.

    Szakalot! SZAKALOT. You're needed!

    That's easy to do, post a comment about how you dissagree without elaborating. So please, elaborate!

    Also what I meant by other classes not being scalable is that two or four healing stations on one spot doesn't heal faster, or two mines on the same spot or two or more turrets. It helps when it's spread out and then the opposing team still has to deal with one issue at a time. Multiple Naders barraging the same place makes it OP. While multiple airstrikes or artillery barages is just wasting all subsequent shots.
    Szakalot wrote: »

    As it is now, 8v8 is really spammy, and even though a single nader is balanced, 4-5 per team is a huge spam fiesta. Its easy to dodge 2 nades going your way, but 6 nades flying from different directions becomes very hard.

    Thank you! Finally someone thinking with their head and not just wanting to even boost Nader more than she already is.
  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,166

    Also what I meant by other classes not being scalable is that two or four healing stations on one spot doesn't heal faster, or two mines on the same spot or two or more turrets. It helps when it's spread out and then the opposing team still has to deal with one issue at a time. Multiple Naders barraging the same place makes it OP. While multiple airstrikes or artillery barages is just wasting all subsequent shots.

    Well, its not about the same spot every time. 4 proxy's that spam mines means that every corner you turn will be a minefield. 4 Turrets means that any advance you want to make will be slowed&pinned by turrets, that limit your mobility enough for enemies to finish you off.
    4 healing stations means that you can't meaningfully push multiple positions, as enemies get heals all over the place.
    4 fraggers is an instagib party, you get killed from all angles all the time. 4 arty's on chokey maps (like bridge street before barricade) is a constant artillery spam. While 8v8 can very often be extremely spammy (and thats how we like it), it scales badly with multiple clones of the same merc.

    Just wait for 4 Stokers with constant molotovs
    First!

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  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    @Szakalot

    I was going to go into that before deciding to scrap my entire post. And, just as I'd hoped, you covered it pretty well. You do that pretty well!

    What I was objecting to was this part:
    The problem with nader being that her power is exponential with the amount of players using it. Any other merc doesn't improve the team when using many of them. This is why we need a merc to stop naders in their tracks.

    I think you explained pretty well that this isn't the case. I don't know about other people, but I'd rather face 4 Naders than 4 Fraggers.

    I might prefer 4 Skyhammers over 4 Naders, but that's only because people are horrible at rotating their airstrikes. I can't imagine how hard it'd be to move the EV if, instead of everyone just throwing their markers the moment the EV was repaired, they waited and used them one at a time.

    Furthermore, the proposed solution would just ruin explosive classes, period. They exist as a direct counter to defensive positions with healing stations and a lot of people clustered around them. Now imagine being unable to get explosives in, while the opponents can shoot them out. Attackers never win again.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,694
    snowMonkey wrote: »
    Furthermore, the proposed solution would just ruin explosive classes, period. They exist as a direct counter to defensive positions with healing stations and a lot of people clustered around them. Now imagine being unable to get explosives in, while the opponents can shoot them out. Attackers never win again.

    Pretty much nailed it

    The primary reason why I play Fragger at all is specifically for Offense and dealing with Defenders chaining Medics and multiple Bushwhackers.

    As far as the explosives go, Nader actually has counterplay, you can avoid her nades quite easily except when there's multiple ones. But that's class spam in general, that's not specific to Nader. Fragger's nades are harder to deal with but they don't kill on directs nor do they do anything to the EV.

    I think if anything, Nader is for the most part where she should be, though I really do feel direct hit nades SHOULD gib enemies, she'd be a lot more useful that way.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    [quote="snowMonkey;17898

    Furthermore, the proposed solution would just ruin explosive classes, period. They exist as a direct counter to defensive positions with healing stations and a lot of people clustered around them. Now imagine being unable to get explosives in, while the opponents can shoot them out. Attackers never win again.
    [/quote]

    Actually, you're mistaken, it would only be effective in the range of the station, hence if you want to have blunt open explosive protection then you are exposing that station to enemy bullets. And also, remember that artillery and air strikes can still take it down. It is just a counter for Fragger and Nader. And the fact that you can combine it with an aura station actually makes it a good tactic. I don't understand why many people complain about aura's stations, I think they're great and that's why Aura has only 80HP. You need your own station or push hard.

    In the end the fact that you could lock down a position against grenades would force more skill and basically bullet aim. Competitively there is a huge interest in it. Reducing the game to "use grenades when life gets hard" mechanics gets boring really fast.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,694
    Actually, you're mistaken, it would only be effective in the range of the station, hence if you want to have blunt open explosive protection then you are exposing that station to enemy bullets. And also, remember that artillery and air strikes can still take it down. It is just a counter for Fragger and Nader. And the fact that you can combine it with an aura station actually makes it a good tactic. I don't understand why many people complain about aura's stations, I think they're great and that's why Aura has only 80HP. You need your own station or push hard.


    They complain because it's the single most effective way to keep defenders alive. If you have 3 people staying near a health station keeping it safe while it keeps them healed, just bullets alone is not going to cut it. So you Fragger or Nader to combat them, are they strong? Yes, unstoppable? No, Fragger is only as good as his team allows, same thing for Nader. Their job is to get you out of your little camp, not saying you're camping but I'm describing the area in which your team has chosen to defend. Nader and Fragger are the best for getting you out of there so the game can continue. Otherwise, it takes literally no effort at all to get everything back up with just bullets. Even if you destroy the healing station, sentry, mines, and kill a few people, if a Medic survives he can revive everyone and they can set their stuff back up and the process repeats. You need those explosives to FORCE the enemy to retreat and respawn.

    That's how it works, there is NO need to have direct counter other than what they have already, common sense. You see a nade from Nader? Get out of the way. You see a Fragger? Well, if he's popping out to throw a cooked nade it won't get that far, and you should be killing him before he gets that close anyhow, as a group, not as one person at a time going after a tank.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    Actually, you're mistaken, it would only be effective in the range of the station, hence if you want to have blunt open explosive protection then you are exposing that station to enemy bullets. And also, remember that artillery and air strikes can still take it down. It is just a counter for Fragger and Nader. And the fact that you can combine it with an aura station actually makes it a good tactic. I don't understand why many people complain about aura's stations, I think they're great and that's why Aura has only 80HP. You need your own station or push hard.

    In the end the fact that you could lock down a position against grenades would force more skill and basically bullet aim. Competitively there is a huge interest in it. Reducing the game to "use grenades when life gets hard" mechanics gets boring really fast.

    I don't know about you, but I tend to place my stations in cover.

    Imagine the first objective on Terminal, corridor leading to the C4 site. It has cover for terminals, forces attackers into an obvious killzone ( assuming no explosives are available ), has a view of the objective. Defenders could dig in and kill anything that approached, and be able to blow up anything attackers tried to set up outside.

    I rest my case.

  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    @majesticClue and @snowMonkey

    But you both see it as, there is only one approach to the healer plus station combo: blowing it up. It shouldn't be! Instead one should have ones own medic and healing station near by. That's how one effectively counters a base, by creating his/her own near by and then winning the firefirght, finishing off dead enemies to avoid the revive and not only rely on explosives.

    Because it doesn't make sense that a team without medics wins because it is spamming grenades! It has happened, but defenitely shouldn't. Medics must be needed.

    Finally, if you insist on having the grenade technique as the absolute anti healing station solution, then it needs to be only for that purpose. And by that I mean: just like skyhammer saves his airstrike for taking down the EV, because the recovery is so slow, Naders and Fraggers should save up their power for healing stations/camping spots. Because right now, a Nader uses grenades just to get a simpler kill to someone who is in the open trying to kill her, as there is so litlle recovery that she can afford using it there and still have some lac-40's for the eventual healing station coming up...

    And actually, I rarely saw fraggers use their grenades for an easy kill, they usually use it to take out campers, and for this purpose I will never complain, and as they only have one grenade at a time, I've never been grenade killed by a fragger when we were on a one vs one. But the Nader nonesense needs to stop. Just spamming a couple grenades to chip off half your life and then finish you off with an smg is too much.

    I would be glad with either a consequential cooldown time increase (to force saving for important targets) or a reduction in player damage of the grenades; for instance one lac-40 could instantly destroy Aura's healing station but only do 20HP damage to a player. That way it couldn't really be used as the 80HP damage dealing AoE weapon it is right now. I.e. the noob weapon for someone who can't aim properly and needs help for a kill...
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,694
    @majesticClue and @snowMonkey

    But you both see it as, there is only one approach to the healer plus station combo: blowing it up. It shouldn't be! Instead one should have ones own medic and healing station near by. That's how one effectively counters a base, by creating his/her own near by and then winning the firefirght, finishing off dead enemies to avoid the revive and not only rely on explosives.

    So in other words, the only counter to a Medic is another Medic?

    Kinda like how the only counter to Vasilli should be another Vasilli?

    Yea cause that's not bullshit at all.
    Finally, if you insist on having the grenade technique as the absolute anti healing station solution, then it needs to be only for that purpose. And by that I mean: just like skyhammer saves his airstrike for taking down the EV, because the recovery is so slow, Naders and Fraggers should save up their power for healing stations/camping spots. Because right now, a Nader uses grenades just to get a simpler kill to someone who is in the open trying to kill her, as there is so litlle recovery that she can afford using it there and still have some lac-40's for the eventual healing station coming up...

    Except that Skyhammer can also replenish ammo on top of artillery support, whereas Fragger and Nader can not, and the primary purpose IS just that, killing people with explosives.

    That's what they do, and that's all they are good for. And without a proper team to support them they are basically just an annoyance at best, they won't win the game without heals, ammo, and going for the objective.

    I would be glad with either a consequential cooldown time increase (to force saving for important targets) or a reduction in player damage of the grenades; for instance one lac-40 could instantly destroy Aura's healing station but only do 20HP damage to a player. That way it couldn't really be used as the 80HP damage dealing AoE weapon it is right now. I.e. the noob weapon for someone who can't aim properly and needs help for a kill...

    You'd still have spam in a full 8v8 or even 6v6 server, since two people can play Nader and still cause the same scenarios you are complaining about. A damage nerf isn't going to fix that without going so far where the class becomes useless.

    You are looking at it as "it killed me therefore it's op and noobish", we're looking at it as "it's a tactic we have to use, because without the only counter is the EXACT same class". That's stupid balancing, a counter to class A shouldn't be another A, it should be B, which is countered by C, which is countered by A and so on.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    I'm not sure I agree entirely. Because there is a counter to having your fortified healing station blown up. It's called moving it. Also, in order to prevent getting blown up alongside it, you shouldn't be camping it with three other people all within the blast radius of Fragger's grenade.
  • hotpinkReelhotpinkReel Posts: 19
    Any balance situation where the only counter to something is itself, that's OP. The counter to fortifications is explosives. Forcing people to build fortifications near other fortifications, effectively initiating trench warfare where nobody wants to move forward or retreat, would not be fun. Furthermore, it would not be balanced. I already think that Aura is in a place that, with 3 capable ones, the opposing team has to work much, much harder. Even with all the explosives spam on the world, stalling advances or piercing defenses becomes extremely difficult because nobody dies or stays down for long. Granted, this is from pubbing.

    Point being that your balance suggestion needs to account for other counters, and that spam is universal. All the classes scale like you describe Nader as scaling. Of all of them, I think Fragger and Aura are the two worst to deal with, in that order.

  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    You are looking at it as "it killed me therefore it's op and noobish", we're looking at it as "it's a tactic we have to use, because without the only counter is the EXACT same class". That's stupid balancing, a counter to class A shouldn't be another A, it should be B, which is countered by C, which is countered by A and so on.

    So when I first give you a class to counter nader you refuse it, and now you tell me we need to have a class A that counters class B etc.

    In my scenaria Aura with her healing station can stay alive long enough against the tank that is fragger, then comes Nader to get rid of Aura even faster, which with my suggested anti explosive class is countered, which in turn can be countered by Arti or Skyhammer.

    In your scenario, Nader is the uncontested king of the game and noone can apply a counter tactic except for regular shooting to the face. That's uninteresting.

    Also a team full of naders never gets close to danger and with the nades can retreat and wait for the self regeneration while grabbing ammo at ammo cashes. They're totally self sufficient. Medics and ammo givers are just boosters, nothing more.
  • MAOCUBOMAOCUBO Posts: 8
    edited May 2015
    the nader is the most op merc ever, it's like the tuber noob with one man army pro in MW2, it makes no sense, it makes the game unplayable when there is more then one nader in the game, it's just a tube fest, for you guys saying it's a counter for healing station you couldn't be more wrong, it makes no sense at all, it's easy to destroi healling, you don't need 80HP of destroy something that can be destroyed by 2-3 shots, you can kill Aura A MERK WITH one tube, it would make more sense some kind of emp granade to destroy a healing station......
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