The Cold Hard Truth About Fraggers Nade...

If you have been around the forums for any length of time, you must have seen at least one thread proclaiming that Fraggers Nade is OP (Over Powered). Within that thread you find people that fall within one of two camps thrashing it out. One group are the people that believe the Nade is overpowered and simply needs a huge nerf and on the other side we have people that believe the Nade is fine in the grand scheme of things and should be left alone. Both can't be right, can they? Well this is where it gets a little more complicated because in literal terms, no, the Nades are not overpowered. Fragger by his very design is supposed to be one of the heavy hitters and be topping the scoreboard in terms of kills and deaths. His punishment for this? Well, he cannot heal himself or his team, revive other players, do objectives quickly, highlight enemy players or provide ammo to himself and team members. Basically, beyond his lethality, he's kinda useless...

So, we go by the numbers and accept that he is indeed balanced and get on with it, right? Not exactly... There is a new go to term in back seat game design called "Counter Play". Really the words mean very little these days due to the way it has been milked dry by gamers who have very limited understanding of how it works. For those people here that have no idea what I am talking about, watch this -> HERE! In basic terms, counter play is the idea of designing mechanics that both add choices to players using a mechanic and the players on the receiving end of said mechanic. Fraggers Nades do this very poorly... At the moment, the outcome of a Nades overall effect on gameplay is too heavily dictated by the player throwing it. This may seem both obvious and the correct way of doing it and you would not be far wrong. For example, you look at your spawn timer, realise the enemy are about to spawn so you pull out your nade and start cooking. As soon as you hear the enemies footsteps from around a corner you peak out, let the nade fly and get a sexy triple kill. Sure, you earned them kills and it felt awesome to get them. However, it only felt awesome for you. Your team are likely bored and frustrated though the lack of action they are able to partake in and your enemies have just been killed with no opportunity to either fight back or realistically predict what was about to happen. So even though you have somewhat ruined the enjoyment for at least the 3 people you hit but likely more whom now have less chance of progressing or if on your team, less people to interact with, that does not mean what you just did is due to any imbalance in the game...

This is where what you as a player wants, really polarises you opinion on what is right for the game. For simplicities sake I am going to break it down into two camps. 1, the camp that believes in "Skilful Slaughter" and 2, the camp that wants "Skilful Domination", and yes, I know both these names suck but its very late and I need sleep. Before going any further I want to make it clear that I come from the camp of "Skilful Domination". So if you find my wording in the following biased, I do apologise.

In my eyes the camp of "Skilful Slaughter" are the people that generally are of a decent skill level and believe that fair is fair. They want to feel as powerful as possible, as often as possible and are willing to risk the same mechanics being used on themselves to achieve that. Also, extremely casual players and some of the more old school players are more willing to take on this mindset, be it for widely varying reasons. The casual players simply accept it blind with the attitude of "well this is part of the game". On the other hand the more old school players have likely become more accustomed to this form of game design over the years due to how games were in the past. These players pride themselves on a very high skill ceiling

The camp that push for "Skilful Domination" more so believe in a few design pillars like the mythical counter play, wide skill sets catered for and tactical depth being more aligned when it comes to value with individual skill levels. Based on the popularity of games like LoL, Dota 2, Starcraft and Counter Strike, I would have to say the players that generally fall into this camp are the hardcore/avid gamers. These players are generally of a medium to high skill level and receive less support from the extremely casual due to games balanced around skilful domination generally having a much steeper learning curve that less experienced gamers can find daunting

CONTINUED IN THE NEXT POST!!!

Comments

  • mOistmOist Posts: 201
    edited April 2015
    There wasnt a need for yet another thread , the problem isnt that the explosive is op its that people can cancel the cooking time of Nades and use it to there advantage and the overall fact hes to versatile. He can win range fights NP , outgun everyone in CQC with his k-121 (or w/e its called) and can kill crowds/ ppl in cover with ease. His only downside is that he can't self heal (He can regen health tho) but his large health pool makes up for it.

    They also mentioned in one of the streams Explosives currently don't work properly and are killing people who should be out of range , that also makes fraggers nade itself seems more op.
  • PixelTwitchPixelTwitch EnglandPosts: 112
    it seems you either just skimmed over the post or have misunderstood what I was saying... Thanks for the feedback though.
  • riptideriptide Posts: 117
    edited April 2015
    Text

    I read all of that and the entire time I couldn't stop disagreeing with your camps and cs having much counter play. I don't consider strategy evolved over 16-17 years to be counter play or depth. The extent of cs specific counter play is nades,smokes, mollys, and flashes and to a much lesser extent decoys. This game has almost everything there and more.

    If you just wanted to say "make the frags more teamwork oriented" it would have been a much easier post to agree with, but then it does make fragger and thunder even more similar.
  • ToonBEToonBE Posts: 119
    Fragger is dumb atm. Only used to rambo and get kills with completely ignoring synergies with other players. This is probably the wrong forum for this post, because the majority of members here fall in the "skillfull slaughter".

    I like the idea of fragger being used as en entry type of merc helping to deal with certain botllenecks at objectives rather then raw killing power.
  • Glottis-3DGlottis-3D Posts: 418
    Most viable counterplay for nades is Dodge.
    Lower speed travel and that will appear.

    as for Radius vs Damage trade, i would like nades to stay more or less precise weapon.
    The higher radius - the lower skill required to deal damage.
    not againts playing around and tweaking those to find the best radius/damage ratio

    and i agree with ToonBE - playing Fragger is dumb. very undemanding. and in the long term very unrewarding. Just go and Frag. I play him a little bit and get tired of him very soon.
  • DadoPejaDadoPeja Posts: 300
    mOist wrote: »
    ... the problem isnt that the explosive is op its that people can cancel the cooking time of Nades and use it to there advantage and the overall fact hes to versatile. He can win range fights NP , outgun everyone in CQC with his k-121 (or w/e its called) and can kill crowds/ ppl in cover with ease. [...]
    They also mentioned in one of the streams Explosives currently don't work properly and are killing people who should be out of range , that also makes fraggers nade itself seems more op.

    Agreee on this and yesterday on stream devs confirmed they are gonna remove canceling coked nades ( finaly ) . Also k-121 needs rework and Fragger should be balanced !
  • B_MontielB_Montiel Posts: 1,010
    edited April 2015
    In my mind, when I talk about counter play, I talk about having skillful solutions to get rid of a particular problem. That does not mean making this easy in any way. Just to give an example of minded counterplay : In TF2, the scout could be a good answer to an annoying heavy if you are good enough on ambushing him with good moving skills and accurate enough to land 3-4 full body shots. This never meant it was a true punishment for the heavy, because if he reacts well enough he still has the advantage in any way. I've done and I've seen top teams using this efficiently back in the good old days. All this game presented kinda weird solutions to counter specific problems if you took the time to think and assume that you need to be good enough to realise those countering solutions.

    As of now, (patch of thursday coming in two hours), I really miss solutions against a good fragger. Even objectively worse players than me playing him. Even though he lacks any supportive role except tanking (which is totally not to forget), it feels like you can play him half-drunk, having the k-121 in one hand, the nade in the other while doing propellerman/Alexander Pistoletov in the meantime. He does have the best main weapon choices from cqb up to mid-long range, the best damage/practicality compromise ability and the current top health pool.
    While facing any fragger with any other classes, you already know you gonna climb that Everest and chances are more than high that you fail. Appreciated. But I'd like to mention that your opponent, he's just harvesting heads with poor to little interest on his own safety. In my mind, Fragger has too much liberties on the field and allow players using him to have a relaxing time. This never should happen.

    Two facts that come in my mind by the way (just to mention them, they are quite irrelevant in fact) : the number of fragger you see in "competitive" games, and the score medium skilled players are able to pull out with him in a pub. Most of the time, facing some mates on regular basis, I see them achieving +60% score with fragger than they usually use to with any other merc.


    I won't put the other guy here :D
  • son!son! Posts: 92
    Another counter-play for nades (other than baiting and dodging) could be to release rhyno and or thunder. The two easily beat fragger in a straight up gun fight (except for long range) so atleast 1 of 2 nades must be used to kill or damage thunder/rhyno. Start @$!# with the aoe and damage now I worry that'll make those two even stronger--which is not so bad for thunder as he is a bit UP, but rhyno would be a problem. Not to mention decreasing an assault's killing potential will make the game much more rambo medic-centric than it already is.
  • DraceusDraceus Posts: 36
    Wall of Text

    Finally someone with a brain starting a post about the fraggers nade!
    I read it all and I have to say I agree on almost everything.
    Like you said the nade needs some tweaking but its not only about one class, its about looking at the whole picture with all mercs available it will add to the balance of the game and the chance to counterpick the fragger.

    I would say Im also in the "Skilful Domination" camp and agree that the game is actually moving in the wrong direction a lot of the time, sadly.
  • Amerika_KCAmerika_KC Posts: 4,848Moderator
    If you have been around the forums for any length of time, you must have seen at least one thread proclaiming that Fraggers Nade is OP (Over Powered). Within that thread you find people that fall within one of two camps thrashing it out. One group are the people that believe the Nade is overpowered and simply needs a huge nerf and on the other side we have people that believe the Nade is fine in the grand scheme of things and should be left alone.

    I agree with a lot of your points but I'm pretty sure people don't fall into one of two camps. I know it's human nature to try and boil everything down to make things easier to process and sometimes we limit ourselves because we really want to believe a certain PoV but it's incredibly more complicated than Team Edward and Team Jacob and nothing else in between.

    1. There are some people who wants every class in the game to have at least one grenade similar to past SD games. They resent the fact that grenades are only allowed to be used by some classes.
    2. There are people who want to see the nades completely removed from the game. Rare but they exist.
    3. Some people want the nades themselves to be nerfed on their throw range as throwing them across a map seems a bit ridiculous to them at the speed they travel.
    4. Others want the damage nerfed or the speed at which they respawn to go up.
    5. OTHERS wants the grenades to not be replenished through ammo packs but through the crates on maps making them have to go out of their way to pick more up (which other games have done).
    6. Some, like myself, want the ability to switch weapons after you start cooking the nade to be removed. That right there is a HUGE portion of why they are so effective as you can easily time nades from around corners...especially on spawns.
    7. Some think, and I am also partially in this camp, that a lot of people need to use their brain more. If I see a Fragger and he stops firing then he's cooking a nade. I rarely get hit by anything other than Fragger nades meant for others because I know when to not be in an area. Using your brain is an EXCELLENT counter.
    8. Some think the nades shouldn't be cookable which will make pineapple juggler possibly useful.
    9. And then there are people who think they are fine and believe you should L2P.

    And this is but a sample of what I've read and many of the thoughts listed above can be combined. As you can see, they do not fall into your little column A little column B system (points if you get the reference).

    SD is doing something about it. I am sure they realize the issues and hopefully they don't overreact and completely strip Fragger of everything that makes him good and instead implement some of the changes they suggested in their stream and potentially a few other minor ones if needed. As a guy who has seen developers overreacting to fans going nuts on forums boards from the fighting game community, nerfing in small increments has always worked out better for the characters and the players overall.

    My views and comments are entirely my own. I am a volunteer mod and I help with forum tasks. My word carries the same weight as anybody else posting...no more, no less. Think of me more as a forum janitor who cleans when needed as opposed to a cop who wants to bust you :)
  • Milky MacMilky Mac Posts: 40
    edited April 2015
    I honestly never have any trouble killing fraggers.... Only takes 1 shot in the head with BOLT, if you have no aim and can't snipe just dance around em with a speed-whor and shotgun. Proxy or aura just jump and bounce around fragger can't hit em if done properly only takes 2-3 shotguns to kill.


    I know it's about nades but if you can kill them from range or sneak on em nades won't be an issue. Plus he needs his weapons and nades to be "OP" if they weren't what would be the purpose of playing him his name is "FRAGGER" that's what he does is frag. Killing is all he is good for.

    I honestly feel nades are perfect as they are now, and if they were to nerf the ONLY thing should be AOE radius. There have been so many times where a lob nade has won the game by killing an enemy planting or defusing where you were out of LOS taking or making the nades weak is just silly.



    Amerika wrote: »
    7. Some think, and I am also partially in this camp, that a lot of people need to use their brain more. If I see a Fragger and he stops firing then he's cooking a nade. I rarely get hit by anything other than Fragger nades meant for others because I know when to not be in an area. Using your brain is an EXCELLENT counter.

    ^^^^^^ This, 9/10 times if you die to fragger nade it's your fault.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,741
    I will say this, I hate dying to nades but I can never seem to get any kills with them.

    So fragger IMO is balanced like Vasilli but both are frustrating to go against in their own way.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • I have watched the video and also an extra video (balancing for skill) and they both seem reasonable... i agree with mostly everything you say @PixelTwitch but then i watched this and both the video you showed me and the video that i found are pretty much similar... or so i see it... I think what this game needs to show more is TEAMWORK (big words that very few people use) yes there may be an over powered guy but with teamwork, your whole team can easily take the rest of the guys using; communication, cooperation, concentration and respect each other :smile:
  • RuleofBooKzRuleofBooKz Posts: 613
    - no cooking, slower toss, lots of lube

    and teamwork? Serious? Expecting teamwork in pubs is like asking a fish out for dinner expecting to get a kiss. esp when teams are shuffled every round and / or most people play a round or two and D/C or swap to play with buddies or on the better team etc etc etc

    Just crafting the game along the lines that would work for a comp match with elite players just seems like asking for a fail launch when the masses join, have a poor experience and go play <insert upcoming new FPS>
  • @RuleofBooKz Counter Strike- Global Offensive is a great example for both terrible but also great way to find teamwork (casual mode) Yes it can suck most of the time, but when it works it really works :smile: (also competitive mode as well when you think about it)
  • DommedagDommedag Posts: 26
    It was a nice read and I understood about everything you tried to say however I do slightly disagree on certain things. The grandes are powerful, that is for sure and no one can say otherwise. But I feel like you are ignoring the fact that you need to cook those nades which takes a few seconds and during that you are vulnerable. This means if people want to deal with a Fragger cooking his nades have a window of oppertunity to kill him or make him cancel and move back to restore hp. A good Airstrike can take out 5-6 players. Have you seen a good Fragger Nade taking out that many players? I sure have not. The difference is that you most of the times can see the airstrike marker while the nade is more of a guess which brings back the skillceiling. If you are really good at this game, you should predict and pay attention to where people are.

    DB is still in beta and obviously there is a lot of work to do with the game. I do however feel that we need some ladder/ranking server system to let the better players play against each other and eventually give Splashdamage an idea of how abilities and mercs works on a top level.

    A good example for the whole balance thing is also found in LoL. I saw this guy killing and dominating with Master Yi in all my level up games and even during ranked. Most people were saying Master Yi was overpowered, should get nerfed/deleted etc.. And that guy came up to around plat/diamond, then he kept losing and going negative stats due to the skill level he reached, people knew how to counter and deal with it and therefore he was no longer dominating.

    My point is, I don't think we should complain too much about abilities/kit and the balancing of it before we have a proper test environment where the best players gets to battle it out against others around their skill level. Not like level 20's who have been playing DB for 1000 hours taking out 3 players who barely reached level 3.

    And I hope you'll stick around PixelTwitch because the community needs positive and promoting personalities like you.


  • R5on11cR5on11c Posts: 98
    That's a lot of words for an excuse that the only counterplay to an undodgeable nade is sheer luck. Bad excuse tho.
  • MaesTroMaesTro Posts: 16
    edited April 2015
    I was planning to come here giving my input about this, and saw this good, comprehensive post. Cograts @Pixel.

    I agree with you, when you say nade isn't op, in fact nade, right up to the release of nader, was the most obvious counterpart for medics and defending killing zones. I also divide the ppl in 2 groups, medics and non-medics. Why?

    Non-medics:
    Like @majesticClue said, fragger as its flaws too, just like many other annoying mercs (yes annoying, like Vasilli+sniper, Arty with decent amount of spam Proxy+mines+superbouncer with shotgun). Is taking a cooked nade to the face annoying? Sure as hell! But the same goes for shooting a medic, seeing him run to cover, heal, and return with full or almost full health! And seeing ppl that are good with proxy is just marvelous...and ultra-annoying. HOP HOP HOP and you take 3 shotgun-shells to the face and die...if that didn't work, they drop mines on top of you and fly away. Playing against Players good with Vassili, god save us! Seen almost an entire team getting picked by 2 snipers with 70% hs rate in 3 or 4 straight assaults. These ppl, know they kind off infuriate the other players with this, but its part of the pleasure knowing that ppl will get angry and start doing stupid mistakes.

    Medics:

    People that play with medics, have a good advantage in mid-long range against all others. They can shoot, retreat, heal and come back. In case of Aura close-mid. If no one in the team as a Fragger, or if no nades are available, you can see 3 players with 1 aura, just raging havoc and standing in a team's way like a fortress! With Sawbones spamming packs, it gets even more awesome.
    This usually are the ones that complain the most (95%, and taking 5% just because in all this months i think i've seens 2 or 3 Skyhammer's complaining) because, truth be told, are the most invincible ones in case no fragger is around. Who here hasn't seen 3 or 4 medics, just healing themselves and group in bottleneck parts making it the toughest nut to crack ingame?

    As for the nade cooking, as @Dommedag said, you can't just go in the middle of a fight and start cooking a nade...you'll just die since you'll be open to get shot while it cooks.
    So nades are cooked especially when you want to enter a certain area (ie:bridge part2, barrier building) where, if the enemy is defending properly, is really hard (i would say, extreme) to get in. The nade serves as opening ground, destroying the Aura stations, killing some and taking down some HP from others.

    Yes you can use'em at defense points, but mind you you only get 2 nades, and rly seldomly you'll see a fragger that keeps both of them, since ppl tend to use'em to diggout the self-healing medics or use'em to keep enemies at bay, at least for a couple of seconds while you pray for reinforcements, so usually ppl just have 1 nade, then have to wait the full amount for the next one.

    Like someone said above to, never saw anyone getting more than 2,3 kills after spawn with nade, unlike airstrikes. I did try to do waht i could do in W:ET, cooking a nade and jumping in the middle of 5, rly closed in on each others, enemies blowing my self in the process, hoping to kill at least 3 so my team could go and take obj in bridge. Managed to kill 1!!! Freaking 1!! Some players there, that were from ET agreed that if it was ET, at least half of them would've died, but here, that doens't happen.

    Its really hard to balance so many mercs, yet i feel that DB is doing a great job at this, and like many other have said, this is a Beta, and much work will be done.

    On a side note, if have disliked so far the fragger nades, can't wait to see what they'll be thinking of nader ^^

    Pixel, honestly, i too hope you'll be here and continue to contribute to this game/community, since ppl that can build constructive criticism are way more needed then ppl just raging and not explaining.
  • R5on11cR5on11c Posts: 98
    MaesTro wrote: »
    On a side note, if have disliked so far the fragger nades, can't wait to see what they'll be thinking of nader ^^
    The nader can't cook her explosives, they don't work upclose, they are weaker, they are dodgeable. The naders special abilities aren't even close as broken as a literally undodgable instakill nade. Good luck finding rage threads about the nader, because at the current point she requires skill to play...
  • MaesTroMaesTro Posts: 16
    R5on11c wrote: »
    The nader can't cook her explosives, they don't work upclose, they are weaker, they are dodgeable. The naders special abilities aren't even close as broken as a literally undodgable instakill nade. Good luck finding rage threads about the nader, because at the current point she requires skill to play...

    True, she's more flimsy, but the ability to spam nades into a closed room, halting a team and many times killing some of them, is there. When all mercs were available, many ppl raged against her exactly because of this. Just gather 2 Nader's, spamming nades by turns and you get a good stopping power. But this is of topic.

    As for cooking nades, as i said in my post, cooking nades is for specific situations (most often by far, camping peeps)
  • R5on11cR5on11c Posts: 98
    MaesTro wrote: »
    R5on11c wrote: »
    The nader can't cook her explosives, they don't work upclose, they are weaker, they are dodgeable. The naders special abilities aren't even close as broken as a literally undodgable instakill nade. Good luck finding rage threads about the nader, because at the current point she requires skill to play...

    True, she's more flimsy, but the ability to spam nades into a closed room, halting a team and many times killing some of them, is there. When all mercs were available, many ppl raged against her exactly because of this. Just gather 2 Nader's, spamming nades by turns and you get a good stopping power. But this is of topic.

    As for cooking nades, as i said in my post, cooking nades is for specific situations (most often by far, camping peeps)

    This is not the case at all. People just disperse around the choke and get back again, the fuse time is long enough for that. The spamability gets you no advantage at all since the enemy knows where your nades are coming from, why would they engage that spot? They just take an alternate path, you on the other hand can only launch 4 nades in succession.

    As for the cooking nades part, you just have to see the enemy one single fraction of a second and the rest is the most simple prediction game. The offense power of this is ridiculous since you can bomb out your way at will and the enemy can't predict that. got 4 guys around the corner? 1 peek and they are screwd since you don't even need to face them.
  • In my humble opinion, the only kind of nerfs the fragger nades need right now are:
    - longer time for nade to explode. This change will increase the time the fragger is exposed giving more time for the enemy to react.
    - slower travel speed. Given the current speed, even if a player is far away we cannot see the nade travel, with or without the visual indicator, until it is too late.

    At the moment there seems to be some problems with nades/strikes explosion as their effects seem to be able to cross walls and with the explosion radius.
  • DadoPejaDadoPeja Posts: 300
    Lol Fragger trows his nade faster then Nader's GL - Logic :wink:
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,741
    Honestly, I think that Fragger needs to be where he is if Medics are going to stay as they are. With the Revive shield, Aura's healing station, self heals, and how long it takes to gib someone, Fragger is literally one of the only classes capable of getting people out of their holds.

    When an enemy team has an area locked down, you NEED a Fragger, and a good one at that, to get control of the area and push out. Otherwise the game just stops, because of the combo of Engineers and Meds allowing teams to hold an area down completely.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • ReddeadcapReddeadcap Posts: 1,297
    edited April 2015
    While I really agree with Fragger in every thing, he's a tank, he's meant to take the damage and throw it all back, he's suppose to be the basic assault but my only idea is that they should rework the blast damage where if you're RIGHT ontop of the grenade, right near it, in the very center of the blast, you're dead, insta-gibbed, maybe a couple of feet, 70 damage, and if you're at the rim of the blast, 50.


    Or maybe that gibbing would be based off how much Overkill damage it does, if the player is knocked down to -25 or less, gibbed.
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