Martyrdom? /Really?/

2

Comments

  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    The cost of Nader having the ability is only having access to SMGs, and HP and mobility on par with the fire support mercs.

    Nobody plays Nader solely for Martyrdom. Even so, taking Martyrdom would mean giving her something in return.
  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,187
    Also, nader's martyrdom is 'always' available, provided that the nader isnt gibbed. Gib the nader -> ability is not available.

    It can also only be used once per spawn.
    First!

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  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092

    There's no tactic for ANY of the mercs to have something available, they come with tools, and you use them to accomplish goals. that simple.

    You're wrong. Every merc needs to chose if and when they want their ability to be availbale. Of course it always starts as available, but once you use it, be it once or more (in the case where you can use it multiple times until depletion) then you have to wait until you get the ability back.

    It is very common for Aura or skyhammer to have to wait before being able to use their ability again.

    Now if martyrdom should be the same or not, that is another debate. But imo, if martyrdom would have a cooldown, it would reduce the amount of suicide rush happening. Just saying.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,741
    Now if martyrdom should be the same or not, that is another debate. But imo, if martyrdom would have a cooldown, it would reduce the amount of suicide rush happening. Just saying.


    You kill yourself and deny a revive, and it only works people who don't react quick enough.


    So the solution is to not be so close to a nader when she gets downed, saying that's not possible is completely false. It's your fault if you're not paying attention.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    Now if martyrdom should be the same or not, that is another debate. But imo, if martyrdom would have a cooldown, it would reduce the amount of suicide rush happening. Just saying.


    You kill yourself and deny a revive, and it only works people who don't react quick enough.


    So the solution is to not be so close to a nader when she gets downed, saying that's not possible is completely false. It's your fault if you're not paying attention.

    Now you completely replied next to my point... I never said what you assumed I did. But to answer your opinion: you're right you're an idiot if you let a nader die next to you and that would be awesome if all the maps would be a green open field. But unfortunately, deaths around corners or others are very common and that's where nader's martyrdom is succesful...

    Anyway, I believe now that Nader won't change. Splash damage just wants to attrack all the call of duty newbies with the mechanics that we all used to hate then. So assuming that the other merc with the catana is anything like a kniferunner with commando they're just missing someone who can still shoot when not gibbed and they'll have last stand! Oh and let's not forget the legendary akimbo G18, we do need a merc with insane rate of fire and spread to cover the entire screen with a rain of bullets. Then the entire noob starter pack will be complete!
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    What, another Nader discussion getting blown ridiculously out of proportion?

    I'm still waiting for those end of round screenshots showing Nader completely dominating the enemy team.

  • Thai-SanThai-San Posts: 445
    "Martyrdom can no-longer be cancelled by gibbing Nader before it detonates"
    -Fletcher Update

    Damn...
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    Well, at least it's not utterly useless anymore. It was literally impossible to use it against good players prior to that change.
  • Martyrdom should at least have a second to arm before she's allowed to execute it while down. Some loadouts heavily favor melee and having the instant grenade pop out makes it entirely too easy to punish someone who's gotten a melee kill.

    Also, it might be nice if, being an ability, martyrdom had its own cooldown to prevent everyone from spamming it --- conversely, having it on its own cooldown would also make it so that a nader who's just gotten downed could lure in someone going for a finisher and then pop the nade on them when they're least expecting it.
  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,187
    if you are trying to melee naders, you are asking for it!
    First!

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  • KalbuthKalbuth Posts: 46
    What could be done is that "death by martyrdome do not gib you", at least. I've been killed by martyrdom more by my stupidity than anything else, granted, by I also can't count the number of times it happened at the end of a group engagement with a nader finishing himself in the middle of the ennemies during the engagement and setting it off. You usually react, but you're already hurt and therefore get that little enough dmg to down you, if not gib you.

    You lose the ability to be revived when using it, I don't think it should ever warrant a gib on your victim either.
  • t3hsquirr3lt3hsquirr3l Posts: 27
    Just wanted to stop by and say that, after a week of playing, martyr poses little risk to my person now. When I do die to martyr it's entirely my fault.

    I think the defending team needs that ability, since as mentioned it can provide a delay option if used well and even take out some enemies if you're lucky. It's not that much of a delay even, but every half-second counts.

    I've never seen anyone even try to charge in and use martyr offensively, or maybe they have and just die immediately much too far away to be of use.
  • TndYTndY Posts: 55
    How many times have you won a 1 vs 1 cqc with a nader and he detonates
    getting the kill, not because you didn't remember to keep your distance,
    but because your too close when getting the kill or just low hp and slightly nearby?

    The fight is over whether you rolled'em or have only 1hp, you've won.
    Frags based on skill are welcomed and these random circumstance kills are making me drowsy.

    What's the counter to this SD?
    Run when a nader comes around the corner in a closed area?,
    which would be a perfect time for that zz grenade launcher to chase you.
  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,187
    TndY wrote: »
    How many times have you won a 1 vs 1 cqc with a nader and he detonates
    getting the kill, not because you didn't remember to keep your distance,
    but because your too close when getting the kill or just low hp and slightly nearby?

    The fight is over whether you rolled'em or have only 1hp, you've won.
    Frags based on skill are welcomed and these random circumstance kills are making me drowsy.

    What's the counter to this SD?
    Run when a nader comes around the corner in a closed area?,
    which would be a perfect time for that zz grenade launcher to chase you.

    you are never 'too close' to nader. No matter how close you were, there is always enough time to escape
    First!

    48px-First_Blood.png?version=ee44701eadae9f5eb7db0d17c0edc6c9
  • ZenityZenity Posts: 438
    TndY wrote: »
    How many times have you won a 1 vs 1 cqc with a nader and he detonates
    getting the kill, not because you didn't remember to keep your distance,
    but because your too close when getting the kill or just low hp and slightly nearby?

    Well, let me count... oh right, that would be zero.

    Nah seriously I've died a couple of times or so, but that was because I was injured AND tried to backpedal instead of long jumping away. Just a bit too slow (or got stuck). Still, in a single game the number is zero almost every time. As Nader myself I get a decent number of kills with Martyrdom, but the vast majority of them is from players going in for the knife gib. Sorry, no sympathy for that. :tongue:

    Most of the time I actually try to hold out on exploding the grenade now, because it's too easy to gib myself pointlessly. It's a minor delay and a last resort when you are about to tap out anyway, but that's it really.
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    For me too it has been some time since this thread was hot and I must admit that now I keep my distance from Naders and I don't have that frustrated martyrdom death anymore.

    Nevertheless I got a chance to play Nader and even after the last update, there is no other merc with whom I manage as many kills. It's ridiculously easy. Instead of requiring to chew off all of the enemy's HP by bullets alone I often can weaken the enemy's health before finishing him or her off with my smg. Easy peasy.

    I still believe that the GL does too much damage, it should be reduced.

    Also, the fact that I get the better of two worlds keeps bugging me: In fact, when I shoot far with the lac-40s I either get an explosion if I hit a person but a nice ricochet if it hits a hard surface. To me, it should be either or. Right now it is ilogically the best option according to each situation. Unfair.
  • TndYTndY Posts: 55
    Szakalot wrote: »
    you are never 'too close' to nader. No matter how close you were, there is always enough time to escape

    Boxed into a corner unfortunately.
  • TndYTndY Posts: 55
    Zenity wrote: »
    Well, let me count... oh right, that would be zero.

    Nah seriously I've died a couple of times or so, but that was because I was injured AND tried to backpedal instead of long jumping away. Just a bit too slow (or got stuck). Still, in a single game the number is zero almost every time. As Nader myself I get a decent number of kills with Martyrdom, but the vast majority of them is from players going in for the knife gib. Sorry, no sympathy for that. :tongue:

    Most of the time I actually try to hold out on exploding the grenade now, because it's too easy to gib myself pointlessly. It's a minor delay and a last resort when you are about to tap out anyway, but that's it really.

    It's not ubiquitous I guess.
  • ZenityZenity Posts: 438
    Lumi wrote: »
    For me too it has been some time since this thread was hot and I must admit that now I keep my distance from Naders and I don't have that frustrated martyrdom death anymore.

    Nevertheless I got a chance to play Nader and even after the last update, there is no other merc with whom I manage as many kills. It's ridiculously easy. Instead of requiring to chew off all of the enemy's HP by bullets alone I often can weaken the enemy's health before finishing him or her off with my smg. Easy peasy.

    I still believe that the GL does too much damage, it should be reduced.

    Also, the fact that I get the better of two worlds keeps bugging me: In fact, when I shoot far with the lac-40s I either get an explosion if I hit a person but a nice ricochet if it hits a hard surface. To me, it should be either or. Right now it is ilogically the best option according to each situation. Unfair.

    I'd like to see Nader become an actually viable alternative to Fragger or Skyhammer in competitive play (i.e. the slayer role), and until that happens, I think that all talk of Nader being too powerful in terms of killing is pointless.

    She feels good to me now on publics, but let's see if this translates to increased popularity in the tournament tomorrow (32 teams, so somebody is bound to try it out at least).
  • Press F to kill the guy
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    Press F to kill the guy

    First of all, not everyone keeps F bound to knifing... Secondly, it used to be enough to cancel martyrdom but apparently it was a bug. And most experienced users still manage to drop martyrdom before you can gib them, so you still get blown to pieces...
  • worthyStewworthyStew Posts: 23
    My opinion about this is that it is a poor mechanic designed to reward people for losing. Doesn't belong in PvP enviroment. You died, you shouldn't get a kill for being worse than your opponent.

    This is what they did to a simular mechanic in another game I played when this very issue came up, increase the detonation time by 1-2 seconds. It's already an atomic bomb, no need to be instant detonated.
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    @worthyStew I agree that people shouldn't get rewarded for dying, but martyrdom doesn't mean a kill anymore, because people learned to stay away from Naders. So it either is a kill through enemy stupidity or through careful detonation of martyrdom. Hence it might be an annoyance now and then, but martyrdom is not the problem it used to be anymore, unless you're a newbie, but then again, those have far worse problems right now, like for example to understand that this game isn't about KD or that doing the tutorial for once before jumping into a multiplayer FPS would be the best course of action...
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    Martyrdom doesn't reward Nader for dying. Martyrdom punishes enemies for letting Nader get into their little healing station bunker, and not clearing out. It's only ever your own fault if you die to Martyrdom.
  • worthyStewworthyStew Posts: 23
    @GregHouseMD You're speaking theoretically. Yes theoretically it is your fault if you die to martyrdom. However practically, in fights, with jumping shooting, explosions left and right, tight corners, tight rooms, group fights etc? No, it's a random thing then. If the Nader is in your face and dies, BOOM you're dead. Punished for winning.
  • Ardez1Ardez1 Posts: 3,288
    worthyStew wrote: »
    @GregHouseMD You're speaking theoretically. Yes theoretically it is your fault if you die to martyrdom. However practically, in fights, with jumping shooting, explosions left and right, tight corners, tight rooms, group fights etc? No, it's a random thing then. If the Nader is in your face and dies, BOOM you're dead. Punished for winning.

    Or are you rewarded for winning? After fighting your hp is probably low. Nader is a good friend an is like, follow me, I have a way we can get HP back. And your like, sounds like a good idea. I know we were fighting before, but I am going to stay nearby and watch what happens. Moving away would be a bad idea if you have a plan to help us get HP.

    Nader E > Boom > Revive with full HP and some ammo to replace what you lost in the fight.

    Thanks Nader! I appreciate you caring about me as an enemy enough to give me a hand when I need it!



    Point is, it is all about perspective. Yes there are arguments both ways, but what you need to look at is the question, "Is it fair?".

    In my mind yes. You know for a fact who can use the ability. It is within your control to avoid it very often. It gibs Nader so she gives up any chance to revive. It doesn't always gib you, so you can be revived. And finally, her only other ability is a fairly mediocre grenade launcher. If you took away her martyrdom, what would you replace it with? She already is NOT used in high level competitive because better options do exist. She is only useful in pubs because the number of players in the match.

    Not to mention she will be absolutely useless in Execution because of the autogib.
    I am a volunteer moderator on these forums. My opinion is my own and does not represent the opinion of Splash Damage or Nexon.
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    worthyStew wrote: »
    @GregHouseMD You're speaking theoretically. Yes theoretically it is your fault if you die to martyrdom. However practically, in fights, with jumping shooting, explosions left and right, tight corners, tight rooms, group fights etc? No, it's a random thing then. If the Nader is in your face and dies, BOOM you're dead. Punished for winning.

    If you're not paying attention to what's going on around you, Martyrdom is the least of your worries. If Nader is in your face, you should see her dying, and you should run away. Unless you're Rhino, you'll make it. If you don't see her dying, or didn't even know she was there, you need to pay better attention. Difficult? Yes. Also, worthwhile.

    Of course, your mistake was getting into that mess of a fight in the first place. It's almost never good to be clustered up like that, frankly. A single grenade will do far more harm than Nader dying near you.

    Nader's mistake was running in. Nader should stay outside and lob grenades in. Do far more good that way. Rewarded for staying alive!

    In the real world ( i.e. not the world of convenient hypotheticals ), Nader is far more likely to unload grenades, run in, shoot people, get shot, and do nothing except maybe take out a healing station. Which is still really good; enemies just got flushed out of a good position, leaving them exposed to the rest of your team. Unless you're playing against absolute beginners, however, you're rarely going to take the enemy team with you.

  • worthyStewworthyStew Posts: 23
    @GregHouseMD You're full of it, you can't control your surroundings as you describe it. And as luck (?) would have it. I main Rhino. :open_mouth:
    Today I had another of those games, holding off a section of the map with medic and lord n behold. Nader bum rushes in, instadeath, instaexplosion kills me and medic allah ackbar style. BS mechanic, no defense for it. Bads getting rewarded for being bad.
  • Ardez1Ardez1 Posts: 3,288
    worthyStew wrote: »
    @GregHouseMD You're full of it, you can't control your surroundings as you describe it. And as luck (?) would have it. I main Rhino. :open_mouth:
    Today I had another of those games, holding off a section of the map with medic and lord n behold. Nader bum rushes in, instadeath, instaexplosion kills me and medic allah ackbar style. BS mechanic, no defense for it. Bads getting rewarded for being bad.

    You shouldn't be able to hold everything with a single medic and rhino. Part of the game is overcoming what the enemy team throws at you. Jump the hurdle :)
    I am a volunteer moderator on these forums. My opinion is my own and does not represent the opinion of Splash Damage or Nexon.
  • GregHouseMDGregHouseMD Posts: 366
    worthyStew wrote: »
    @GregHouseMD You're full of it, you can't control your surroundings as you describe it. And as luck (?) would have it. I main Rhino. :open_mouth:
    Today I had another of those games, holding off a section of the map with medic and lord n behold. Nader bum rushes in, instadeath, instaexplosion kills me and medic allah ackbar style. BS mechanic, no defense for it. Bads getting rewarded for being bad.

    Yeah, no defense at all.

    Except, you know. Not standing atop Nader's corpse.

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