I've finally realized why the sniper changes and machine pistol changes bother me...

XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,688Special Editor
edited February 12 in Weapon Discussion

Yeah, I know, it's a beaten to death topic that probably belongs in weapons discussion but it won't see the light of day there. TL:DR - DB is a fast paced action shooter with every merc sharing weapons because it means that there's more reliance on gunplay and skill than there is abilities. All the weapons in DB, specifically whether it's pistols, smgs, or melee, are made viable.

As time has gone on, more and more people have somewhat believed that the game is just getting spammier, especially with at the time the additions of nader, thunder, and Javelin. However, with Guardian in the mix, that's a little bit less there, though spam clearly happens still. But for me personally, when it comes to snipers, they never bothered me. The great ones were impressive and could seriously keep a team at bay, and the bad ones... well they were just bad, really bad.

Onto the topic at hand, the changes to machine pistols I don't think would have bothered me as much IF they were solely kept as secondary weapons... However Sparks and presumably Hunter both use machine pistols as a higher caliber weapon. And the people that use mps and revolvers etc are meant to have more offensive oomf, which originally was why they had access to those weapons (mps, revolvers) instead of the standard selbstadt or m9.

Them nerfing machine pistols to me was basically saying, "nevermind, they weren't supposed to have as good a sidearm/backup weapon." 20 rounds on the mp400 only works these days if you're nailing 80% of your hits on a target. But if you land even one headshot on a revolver that's 72 damage. It's... hard... just hard for me to grasp why they did this. I mean, I'm glad the reload changes also made it a little bit more bearable that you run out of ammo soooo dang fast on the MPs now too. But... just think about it, you compare these weapons to the Empire 9 as a base? That gun has been toasted on almost every update I can think of since january of 2017. I literally hate that gun and am not sure how you can claim it's "over powering" when you have to be in someone's face for it to actually deal any sizeable amount of damage.

Then you add to that the changes to snipers... Honestly, they're not terrible. However them adding that pause, is really what killed it for me. And the only reason it really bothers me is because as the TLDR says, DB is fast paced. When you remove the ability for someone to defend themselves with their sidearm or run away or etc, you remove a tremendous power from that merc for simply using a primary weapon. I would have to do math to see how high the DPS on a sniper is, but something tells me that with these added PAUSE moments it's nowhere near other guns. The second problem which I easily ran into today: I can gun down a kira from one side of trainyard's last objective near the MG all the way where you run through the little halls after picking up the objective in the middle of the map with a Crotzni. I think there's a problem. It's too easy to just use a different gun. Who cares about sniping when you can equal or better performance out of just being able to aim with a different gun? Even the long range draw of a sniper doesn't matter to me. It just doesn't feel good, and it ruined Aimee's playstyle of hit and run. Now she's fire, wait like a freaked out chicken hoping that no one realized the super obvious vapor trail, and THEN run, or risk dying because you fire another shot.

I don't know, maybe it's just me. But I think these changes ruined not only the ability for gunplay and the obvious differences between heavier weapon mercs to matter, but also the playstyle of Aimee completely. In DB, heavier weapons simply meant heavier weapons. Now it's just... "whatever, I'll use the Crotzni and Hoch."

I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

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Comments

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 4,317
    edited February 12

    im okay with sniper pushing with the team and support them with sniper rifle on CQB

    im "NOT" okay with snipers able to defend themselves versus a fragger or a skyhammer on close range.
    i still dont get why they nerf Empire-9 tho (no sniper used it).

    maybe they want to make room for new MP but thats a crappy way to balance the gun.

    Empire-9 is the crappiest MP because the circular spread pattern, nerfed magazine, nerfed damage.

    what i want is every mercs gets a different kind of weapon with different attachment

    Fletcher would get the no stock with extended barrel suppressor Empire-9 and Sparks would get the collapsible stock with snub barrel.

    Fletcher MP would be less noisy while sparks MP would be more controlable.

    with this, its easier to tweak and tune each mercs

    Hope County Choir - Keep Your Rifle By Your Side
                                                                    
  • @frostyvampire said:
    I'm pretty sure that the weapon switch pause is a bug since it only affects the FEL-IX and not the MoA. That's the only problem I have with snipers, I'm 100% fine with the new fire rates and damage.
    Perhaps the MoA could have a slight headshot damage buff and the ability to 1 shot health stations but it's not a big deal.

    tl;dr: fix the FEL-IX weapon switch bug

    Its had this problem since before the start of Summer Squash 1, in all honesty. I'm amazed it hasn't been fixed yet; I noticed it persisting all the way through to Summer Squash 3.

  • jooshoyesjooshoyes Posts: 343
    edited February 12

    I disagree that smgs take less skill to use than snipers for the same reward , really the reward snipers get is way higher than smgs( one shot at any range). But I do agree that the changes have pushed snipers further back from the frontline, equating to boring play with them and against them (i.e. the issue that they cannot be countered at long range without another sniper, the main issue from the very beginning).

    My suggestions would be to slightly increase the rate of fire of both snipers (5-10%), remove the delay after shot, and give them damage drop off to ~2/3 of their original damage. This would fix the problem of an entire lane being completely guarded by a good sniper, and force the sniper in person to take risks (something lacking currently) and play aggressively.

    I know this does not sound very sniper esque, but tbh the idea of the normal sniper does not suit this game in the slightest.

  • @frostyvampire said:
    I'm pretty sure that the weapon switch pause is a bug since it only affects the FEL-IX and not the MoA. That's the only problem I have with snipers, I'm 100% fine with the new fire rates and damage.
    Perhaps the MoA could have a slight headshot damage buff and the ability to 1 shot health stations but it's not a big deal.

    tl;dr: fix the FEL-IX weapon switch bug

    Fel-ix had a few re-chambering bugs before the most recent change, not sure if those are now fixed or not. As of the most recent update BOTH bolt actions have a significant weapon switching delay along with a movement penalty. The movement penalty is the part I'm most against. The switching delay does punish misses more harshly which is fine but also encourages a more campy/angle-holding play style in general. I think machine pistols are in a pretty good place now as secondaries.

    IMO

  • frostyvampirefrostyvampire Posts: 1,186

    @pumpkinmeerkat said:

    @frostyvampire said:
    I'm pretty sure that the weapon switch pause is a bug since it only affects the FEL-IX and not the MoA. That's the only problem I have with snipers, I'm 100% fine with the new fire rates and damage.
    Perhaps the MoA could have a slight headshot damage buff and the ability to 1 shot health stations but it's not a big deal.

    tl;dr: fix the FEL-IX weapon switch bug

    Fel-ix had a few re-chambering bugs before the most recent change, not sure if those are now fixed or not. As of the most recent update BOTH bolt actions have a significant weapon switching delay along with a movement penalty. The movement penalty is the part I'm most against. The switching delay does punish misses more harshly which is fine but also encourages a more campy/angle-holding play style in general. I think machine pistols are in a pretty good place now as secondaries.

    The MoA weapon switch delay is close to non existent so it's barely noticeable. I still seem to be able to bodyshot and switch to my pistol in time with Vassili. With FEL-IX it's a lot longer which makes the weapon unplayable at close range because even if you bodyshot, you can't switch to your pistol before losing at least half of your health.

    And on top of that, there is a bug with all shotguns and snipers after firing the last bullet in the magazine (or the last pellet for shotguns)

  • Well for snipers they usually shouldn't be in positions where they even have to use the machine pistols, and Sparks is kind of in the same position. Besides, a good enough Sparks won't even need to use the MPs, and a really good Vassili would probably just use the revolver if he ends up in a position where he has to fight up close. As for Aimee and Redeye, well they have access to both the Grandeur (Redeye also has access to the Dreiss, which is still pretty good) as well as the Deagle. So I feel like when it comes to actually having to fight in close quarters as a sniper, it comes down to skill and weapon choice. Though, I don't know if weapon choice being an important factor is really a good thing...

  • Even if some mercs run them as primaries, MPs are sidearms, period. As such they need to be in line with all other sidearms. Kind of sounds like you want a class of weapons somewhere between a sidearm and smg, in terms of overall power. Maybe that was the design intent, idk, but if so i think they should just call it a separate class of weapon. available to the relevant mercs.

    I don't think a sniper a should much of a chance against a DPS close up anyway, unless they're really good with their primary and melee. To me the MPs work well to clean up low health hangers-on, I'm not expecting to outgun fragger players of the same experience up close and personal.

    More to the point, I think if mercs are TOO reliant on a sidearm, maybe that is the real issue at hand.

    Maybe Sparks does need a real primary? Do Fletcher and Pancake Throwing She-Devil™ really need MPs? Vasilli and Aimee can has katana?

    I do, however, agree in my dislike of recent changes to the bolt actions. You can only slow the cycle rate down so far before it changes from feeling like "the slow end of reasonable" to "it feels like I'm waiting for a bus. Also, people are shooting at me.".

  • NexDroidNexDroid Posts: 78

    Well I'd like sniper rifles to deal much less body damage (35 - 45) and has much higher rof. Also add nice headshot multipler (1,5 - 2) so headshots are more much better than body shots. Right now you can with moa kill Aura in two body shots even when she is at HS. Also I'd like sniper rifles to be suited more for aggresive gameplay and benefit headshots more. Now most of snipers are forced to stay back because of lack of secondary weapons (well their firepower) and quite a low rof, that means when you miss in cqb you most likely die, since secondaries are useless and that slow down motion that happens when you chamber other round is just too high.

  • NexDroidNexDroid Posts: 78

    @geefunkster said:
    Even if some mercs run them as primaries, MPs are sidearms, period. As such they need to be in line with all other sidearms. Kind of sounds like you want a class of weapons somewhere between a sidearm and smg, in terms of overall power. Maybe that was the design intent, idk, but if so i think they should just call it a separate class of weapon. available to the relevant mercs.

    I don't think a sniper a should much of a chance against a DPS close up anyway, unless they're really good with their primary and melee. To me the MPs work well to clean up low health hangers-on, I'm not expecting to outgun fragger players of the same experience up close and personal.

    More to the point, I think if mercs are TOO reliant on a sidearm, maybe that is the real issue at hand.

    Maybe Sparks does need a real primary? Do Fletcher and Pancake Throwing She-Devil™ really need MPs? Vasilli and Aimee can has katana?

    I do, however, agree in my dislike of recent changes to the bolt actions. You can only slow the cycle rate down so far before it changes from feeling like "the slow end of reasonable" to "it feels like I'm waiting for a bus. Also, people are shooting at me.".

    Sparks is now at pretty bad shape. Her main weapons are trash, self healing was reduced and her low health still remain the same. Yeah RevivR can still do quite a bit of damage, yet I still prefer to use my pistol to close range fight than Empire, since my Selbstadt is much better and more reliable. Your only choice is now to keep on reviving and run as fast as possible when enemy gets close to you. She used to be amazing and skill rewarding merc, now she is just outplayed by EVERY single medic, even guardian with her group/range revive and a REAL weapon.

  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,688Special Editor
    edited February 12

    @frostyvampire said:
    I'm pretty sure that the weapon switch pause is a bug since it only affects the FEL-IX and not the MoA. That's the only problem I have with snipers, I'm 100% fine with the new fire rates and damage.
    Perhaps the MoA could have a slight headshot damage buff and the ability to 1 shot health stations but it's not a big deal.

    tl;dr: fix the FEL-IX weapon switch bug

    Yeah, that's part of why I didn't go into the MOA at all, on a recent match I had a solid performance using it the first half. I believe it actually does have a weapon switch lag though, because I was feeling it.

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,688Special Editor

    @K1X455 said:
    I might add that the hipfire shot of the sniper rifles (FEL-IX, and MOA) with a large bloom (and consequently, a random shot) is actually contrary to DB's prescribed gameplay of running and gunning. To remove the randomness of the shot, a player has to hard scope and get inconvenienced by two gameplay mechanics, namely: movement penalty and scope tunnel vision.

    If only sniper rifles can be employed effectively at close quarters, we could possibly see a change in the way Vassili and Aimee players become more helpful in game objective.

    I find this post interesting, however 90% of shooters make hip-firing sniper rifles pointless WITH the large bloom and added randomness of shot. You name a recent shooter, it likely has very innacurate sniper rifles when hip-fired. I thought that the two inconveniences, movement penalty because you're scoped in, AND the scope's "tunnel vision" was originally what was supposed to balance sniper players in a game like this one.

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 174
    edited February 13

    @K1X455 said:
    I might add that the hipfire shot of the sniper rifles (FEL-IX, and MOA) with a large bloom (and consequently, a random shot) is actually contrary to DB's prescribed gameplay of running and gunning. To remove the randomness of the shot, a player has to hard scope and get inconvenienced by two gameplay mechanics, namely: movement penalty and scope tunnel vision.

    If only sniper rifles can be employed effectively at close quarters, we could possibly see a change in the way Vassili and Aimee players become more helpful in game objective.

    This is really silly.

    Snipers have to be somewhat weak at close range to compensate for their unique power at long. With the old MPs and Vasilli's 110 HP that wasn't really the case. If Snipers are weak now (they aren't) it's because of the massive bolt action RoF nerf.

    Anyway, the recommendation of having snipers be hipfireable is bad. For one thing it would dramatically weaken the sniper theme, it would make god snipers absurd, and a bunch of other stuff. It's also completely unneeded because -5 ammo off of Vasillis MP did not break the hero or anything close. It's also unneeded in a second way because really good snipers already have a decent chance to defend themselves with a quick scope.

    There are lots of reasons for the MP change. Now Vasilli's revolver kits don't feel strictly worse, for one thing. And Snipers are still perfectly powerful in very skilled hands. Although they are less powerful in less skilled hands, which they have to be in order to not be oppressive at the top end.

    Post edited by woodchip on
  • K1X455K1X455 Posts: 1,885
    edited February 13

    @woodchip said:
    This is really silly.

    Snipers have to be somewhat weak at close range to compensate for their unique power at long. With the old MPs and Vasilli's 110 HP that wasn't really the case. If Snipers are weak now (they aren't) it's because of the massive bolt action RoF nerf.

    Anyway, the recommendation of having snipers be hipfireable is really bad. For one thing it would dramatically weaken the sniper theme, it would make god snipers absurd, and a bunch of other stuff. It's also completely unneeded because -5 ammo off of Vasillis MP did not break the hero or anything close. It's also completely unneeded in a second way because really good snipers already have a decent chance to defend themselves with a quick scope.

    There are lots of reasons for the MP change. Now Vasilli's revolver kits don't feel strictly worse, for one thing. And Snipers are still perfectly powerful in very skilled hands. Although they are less powerful in less skilled hands, which they have to be in order to not be oppressive at the top end.

    It's the only wise thing to do after the silly things done before all the balancing crap done by Spalsh Damage. Imagine if the MOA and FEL-IX is granted the OSKs at long and extended distance and accurate and precise hipfire but less damage they do as it is right not, setting aside the gunplay mantra SD is promoting (because OSKs at long range is gunplay).

  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,688Special Editor
    edited February 13

    @woodchip said:

    @K1X455 said:
    I might add that the hipfire shot of the sniper rifles (FEL-IX, and MOA) with a large bloom (and consequently, a random shot) is actually contrary to DB's prescribed gameplay of running and gunning. To remove the randomness of the shot, a player has to hard scope and get inconvenienced by two gameplay mechanics, namely: movement penalty and scope tunnel vision.

    If only sniper rifles can be employed effectively at close quarters, we could possibly see a change in the way Vassili and Aimee players become more helpful in game objective.

    There are lots of reasons for the MP change. Now Vasilli's revolver kits don't feel strictly worse, for one thing. And Snipers are still perfectly powerful in very skilled hands. Although they are less powerful in less skilled hands, which they have to be in order to not be oppressive at the top end.

    I'm not exactly sure K1X was saying per se that we should add in hipfiring for snipers, I think he was more saying that something should be done PERIOD over being able to better use them in close quarters combat.

    Now, as for the MP changes... Since when did Vassili's one and only revolver kit ever feel strictly worse? In fact I would argue the opposite. A good Vassili has good aim with both sniper and revolver, you put in that he can hit heads with said revolver and it means he's got an easy 72 damage DING whenever he swaps weapons... with 6 rounds to compliment btw. Even at 30 damage a round hitting he's got better damage ease IMO than current Machine pistols.

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 174
    edited February 13

    So we're talking about Vasilli here because Aimee doesn't have MPs. So the question is how important was the MP400 nerf to his CQB ability.

    Not much. MP400 DPS is still solid and does 200 bodyshot DPS per clip. Enough for a single duel at 40% accuracy, especially starting with a bodyshot. Mostly the nerf affects its ability at medium range (which isn't what this thread is about) and its ability to deal with more than 1 enemy.

    And if the Revolver loadouts were competitive as you say then this change wouldn't even be much of a nerf to Vasilli in competitive play. Point was just that most people saw MP400 in the kit as a bonus compared to the other MP and the revolver. It was OP for its slot. And also OP overall because it let Vasilli compete favorably with lower HP SMG mercs.

    I do not take seriously the idea that a 2% DPS nerf and -5 ammo to the MP400 merits a total redesign of DBs sniping mechanics. Snipers are in a pretty good place, and if it turns out that they are undertuned in top end competitive play (they don't seem to be) then it would probably be better to buff their recon abilities rather than rebuff MP400 Vasilli into a CQB menace.

  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,688Special Editor

    @woodchip
    Um, yes, and no. I think what you're missing is that I'm saying they did too many changes that affect too many mercs at one time, and that these changes DO matter. Specifically Sparks, and Aimee. Vassili is mostly fine with the MOA, but if you're using Fel-IX on him it still feels janky and out of place.

    What I DID discuss and make a point out of, CONCERNED Vassili, was that you said his MPs were a STRICT better choice over his revolvers. Which I answered NO to, because it not only depends on play preference, but if you clock out two headshots with those badboys, which can be done in less than 80% of a second mind you, you will kill every merc with 130 HP or less. He also moves faster with a revolver than a machine pistol out, and AGAIN, it's PER player preference. Most of the great players I know that play Vassili preferred having his revolver on Fel-9 loadouts, and Mp400 on MOA loadouts not because of just the guns, but because of the PERKS. Spares and Focus/Quick-Eye. OR drilled depending on how the Vassilis play. snickers I prefer atm the hard hitting revolver as a backup switch weapon, and it personally feels a little faster to whip out than either of the MPs.

    My biggest issue with MPs in my original statement was actually concerning that they were always intended to be a heavier sidearm, right up there with Revolvers. Which until recently, were a little more powerful too. shrugs I guess as of the most recent updates revolvers were somewhat of a weaker pick. And that they are the primary weapon of Sparks and seemingly hunter.

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • K1X455K1X455 Posts: 1,885

    Vassili and Aimee's ability to handle CQB situation is a consequence of them being in the middle or front line where the action mostly is; which means that to fulfill their RECON role they have to bring their presence much closer to the fight rather than hang back and pick off camping targets.

  • ImSplooshImSploosh Posts: 1,168

    The sniper rifle changes were just terrible. The first ones, to the damage or whatever, wasn't too bad. However, the most recent ones (as far as I know, haven't played much), make them unusable in my opinion. Especially the Felix. The bolt action goes in slow motion and doesn't do much damage to back it up. MOA also feels really off. Like I was unable to fire even after cocking it back... Idk, I'd have to look at the change list to see why it's like that.

    Anyways, definitely agree with you. I never had any issues with snipers. Facing them wasn't a problem unless the person was godlike, in which case they'd be the same with every weapon. Even so, with abilities and tactics, you were able to get around or eliminate the threat. To be honest, I think the sniper nerfs were just another instance where over-complaining led to over-nerfing. Reminds me of how people at my work complained the AC was too cold after they fixed it and now it's hotter than it's ever been. heh

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 4,317

    lel SD refused to reduce vasilli HP to 100 and rather nerf everyone else's MP
    Proxy mine can only be shot and cant be exploded by some abilities because "Bugs"

    top memed SD

    Hope County Choir - Keep Your Rifle By Your Side
                                                                    
  • EoxEox FrancePosts: 3,193Moderator
    edited February 13
  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,688Special Editor
    edited February 13

    I knew it would happen. :)

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • -OCB-Wildcard-OCB-Wildcard Posts: 269
    edited February 13

    @Xenithos said:
    I knew it would happen. :)

    Could've told you that a while ago but I wanted to see how long it would take @Eox to notice it should be there on their own... o:) I'm not evil, I swear!

  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,688Special Editor

    I would jokingly say i like to give him Easter egg hunts, but it's actually a matter of saying my piece instead of having it die off before anyone really cares to see it.

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • -OCB-Wildcard-OCB-Wildcard Posts: 269
    edited February 13

    @Xenithos said:
    I would jokingly say i like to give him Easter egg hunts, but it's actually a matter of saying my piece instead of having it die off before anyone really cares to see it.

    I know the feeling, but I can't resist making snarky remarks where I can either; it's part of who I am, so expect it from me because I always come along to make one eventually. :p

  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,688Special Editor

    Oh I expect one sister. Snark away, but remember that those who are prepared to snark, must also be prepared to BE SNARKED.

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • Say, is there any way we can compare snipers to other multiplayer shooter?
    A good example would be a start...

    Like Wolf ET? How were snipers like, back in the precursor? Or maybe 2005 battlefront 2? Really hard to compare DB into something else...

    Dirty Bomb = Lawbreakers 2.0 Electric Boogaloo

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