Should Guardian be allowed to match up with Javelin's Release on Season IV

K1X455K1X455 Posts: 1,718
edited February 7 in General Chat

Cheesing 1v1s vs explosive denial

Should Guardian be allowed to match up with Javelin's Release on Season IV 41 votes

Yes
73% 30 votes
No
26% 11 votes

Comments

  • STARRYSOCKSTARRYSOCK Posts: 1,439
    edited February 7

    Honestly I'd say yes. Guardian isn't the most complicated merc to play or learn how to counter, and as a result I don't think she needs as much time to get used to as other mercs. By now, most people seem more than used to her. The strategy against her is basically "don't throw explosives at this area for 10 seconds if you see a red bubble".

    Plus, Guardian is effectively a counter to Javelin. She helps prevent Javelin's rocket from being an easy kill button in every case, so releasing javelin without a merc to properly counter her in ranked seems a bit... weird.
    Not to mention ranked tends to be plagued with constant fragger or arty spam, especially on EV maps. Allowing in Guardian would help a lot to lessen that.

    I know SD said they were going to be changing up ranked every week or whatever, so I'm not sure if that'll mean guardian might be added in sometime in the middle of the season, but I really hope they don't wait until next season to bring her in.

    EDIT: Also not sure why you bothered making the poll anonymous. It's not like this is an embarrassing topic, lol

  • Lord_CoctusLord_Coctus Posts: 2,197

    @STARRYSOCK said:
    Not to mention ranked tends to be plagued with constant fragger or arty spam, especially on EV maps. Allowing in Guardian would help a lot to lessen that.

    Guardian would help change the "whoever has more Fraggers and Arty wins" meta

    EDIT: Also not sure why you bothered making the poll anonymous. It's not like this is an embarrassing topic, lol

    He didn't want to embarrass the explosive spammers

  • K1X455K1X455 Posts: 1,718

    @Lord_Coctus said:

    EDIT: Also not sure why you bothered making the poll anonymous. It's not like this is an embarrassing topic, lol

    He didn't want to embarrass the explosive spammers

    Javelin is in a very bad state as a Fire Support merc, I cannot rely on her for team play. She's just not right for the team. Remember, The TEAM.

  • MelinderMelinder Posts: 726

    @K1X455 said:
    She's just not right for the team. Remember, The TEAM.

    Making every engagement a 5v4 is very helpful for "The TEAM"

    Eradicator of Chimps

  • K1X455K1X455 Posts: 1,718

    @Melinder said:

    @K1X455 said:
    She's just not right for the team. Remember, The TEAM.

    Making every engagement a 5v4 is very helpful for "The TEAM"

    If Javelin is on the other team, it's helpful for The TEAM; contrary otherwise.

  • Da_MummyDa_Mummy Posts: 194

    Well Guardian would really help to prevent the whole Arty-Party Chapel meta. And could work as either a third medic or a slightly weaker secondary if the team plays more carefully.

    Javelin would be a one man takedown to blow up either the teams primary medic or the main damage output right away to disrupt the enemies combination. Plus in comp settings teams should be smart enough to avoid Javis one way ticket to down under (not Australia you get the idea).

    So I don't see the reason they should be held back and quite frankly if you think they're not balanced enough now, well it's not going to be that different in 3 Months or so.

  • emjotemjot Posts: 153

    sarcasm starts

    Javelin requires good timing, skill and perfect rocket-aim.
    On the other hand we have a guardian, merc who doesn't require any timing, is not tactical at all, counters nothing, is useless in competitive game and can't match Javelin as must-have merc in your roster.

    Ranked matches should be more tactical and teamwork-oriented therefore Javelin should be included, Guardian? Not necessarily.

    sarcasm ends

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 4,092

    @Mr.Cuddlesworth said:
    The Nos must be Javelin mains :P

    Electric Light Orchestra - Prologue/Twilight
                                                                    
  • SiwaonaDaphnewenSiwaonaDaphnewen Posts: 17
    edited February 7

    I think she won't appear in new ranked season because some rework or rebalance is planned like for Phantom.

    The way she currently implemented she will be bad for ranked. I'll adress 2 of her major issues for that:

    Kill-revive to heal mechanic in ranked
    The main problem is her healing ability. A lot of work has been done to reduce kill-revive mechanic for Sparks: team damage penalty, team heal buff, self heal nerf, med pack hit box increace ect. While this lame mechanic still exists for every medic it is not big problem because of reasonable healing abilities. Guardian is not meant to heal team mates(isn't she?), but yet she will do in ranked with this awful and broken way.

    Utility of Sky shield
    Her primary ability seems to lack utility in ranked. Nobody in bright mind will launch his explosive into sky shield exept Proxy and Kira for known reasons. What may work in pubs atm won't work in ranked. She requires you to predict the moment when enemy launches explosive at you:
    -get drone a sec earlier and you may cause Fragger/Jav to cancel their @$!# to use just a little bit later somewhere else;
    -get it a second later and drone will not shot down the frag/missile/arty causing your, your team mates' and(or) drone death;

    Something i learned in pubs is how to kill people with explosives through sky shield. Just count time and use your ability a second before skyshield disappears. Got me a lot of kills on people who think skyshield is a reliable protection.

    I wouldn't say she is that epic at defending EV from Arty. It's not that hard for Arty to put a strike in edge of sky shield radius and damage EV that has tendency to move out of safe area when team actually pushes it. Putting drone in front of EV to increace time of being in safe territory doesn't usually work even in pubs as long as enemy has eyes and bullets. Trying to catch an arty strike is some "braveness & dumbness" material with some high reward on success.

    Ofc 4 Arty+medic party will have some issues against 4 Guardy+engineer party. But yet changing meta to 3 Arty+Kira+Medic party is not big difference.

    She has an interesting concept and if SD plans to change her a little than i would like to wait for another season. If they don't have any plans ... than i don't get why would they keep us waiting.

  • K1X455K1X455 Posts: 1,718

    I remember her skyshield got nerfed which dismayed me a lot. Plus, they haven't considered reducing the activation time the moment she throws it. SD did improve her bio-pulse by reducing the cooldown, which was being asked for from the beginning; and little does everyone know that she inherits slow healing from Sawbones medpack because she's a medic.

    Still, it makes full sense to balance the matches by including her in the update.

  • doxjqdoxjq Posts: 2,076

    Considering the fact they don't allow new mercs to be played in ranked not only because they are new but also to balance them fairly first, I'd say Guardian should be allowed and Javelin still shouldn't be if anything.

  • -OCB-Wildcard-OCB-Wildcard Posts: 177
    edited February 7

    @K1X455 said:

    @Lord_Coctus said:

    EDIT: Also not sure why you bothered making the poll anonymous. It's not like this is an embarrassing topic, lol

    He didn't want to embarrass the explosive spammers

    Javelin is in a very bad state as a Fire Support merc, I cannot rely on her for team play. She's just not right for the team. Remember, The TEAM.

    To be honest she doesn't feel right for the team because, like guardian, she's technically not really part of the category she's lumped into. She's at best a psuedo-fire support but is more of an assault merc with an ammo regeneration passive. Guardian is more of a utility/secondary dps merc mixed with a psuedo-medic having hp closer to a fire support and on par with engineers; as well as access to assault rifles and her gimmick ability which serves for utility purposes. They're both mercs that don't fall solidly into the categories they are in, or any of them in general, so of course they'll feel inadequate and sub-par for the roles they're currently considered to be in; they're both essentially the Frankenstein mercs of this game in that they're a meshed together combination of various roles in one package.

    They function more like the Flex Player's do in a Competitive team; filling the gaps and compensating for a groups shortcomings but never being the complete equal to a dedicated player of the specific roles in question (granted exceptions exists but the analogy here works). So when all mercs have, up until now, fallen neatly within one of the four categorized roles we have in this game (i.e. Medic, Fire Support, Assault, Engineer) these two fall into none of them cleanly and instead are hybridized in their intended role. When you start approaching it with that in mind things become much clearer, in my opinion.

  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,501Special Editor

    If they don't put in a Merc limit before 1.0 Guardian stacking in Ranked and other places if she's not adjusted correctly will most certainly be a thing. Calling it now. EV being able to get to places without being destroyed is absolutely happening already in PUG matches and some pubs.

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • teflonloveteflonlove Posts: 507

    @Xenithos said:
    EV being able to get to places without being destroyed is absolutely happening already in PUG matches and some pubs.

    Kira to the rescue.

  • fryszopenfryszopen Posts: 21

    hell yeah

  • Lord_CoctusLord_Coctus Posts: 2,197

    @teflonlove said:

    @Xenithos said:
    EV being able to get to places without being destroyed is absolutely happening already in PUG matches and some pubs.

    Kira to the rescue.

    Besides that happens even without Guardian.

  • kopyrightkopyright Posts: 482

    From past experience this is mostly the case when you are the only person who bothered bringing Arty to an EV map. Or even worse, when your team has three air support mercs and nobody ever uses them. :s

  • CordycepsCordyceps Posts: 56

    It's pretty incredible how long some mercs have to be worked on before being allowed into competitive. I understand with Javelin there's a lot of controversy on whether or not she's overpowered, but I'd say that Guardian's in a really good spot right now in terms of balance, and should be let in at the same time as Javelin.

  • ThePigVomitThePigVomit Posts: 287

    In b4 guardian changes block Kira lazor

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 4,092

    @ThePigVomit said:
    In b4 guardian changes block Kira lazor

    oh heelll no

    Electric Light Orchestra - Prologue/Twilight
                                                                    
  • @GatoCommodore said:

    @ThePigVomit said:
    In b4 guardian changes block Kira lazor

    oh heelll no

    I wouldn't worry too much about that happening since its design requires a projectile to nullify (e.g. the explosives from airstrikes and arty strikes, grenades, etc.). So unless they plan to fundamentally change her role that change will never come to pass; assuming they have any common sense to speak of.

  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 149
    edited February 12

    @Cordyceps said:
    It's pretty incredible how long some mercs have to be worked on before being allowed into competitive. I understand with Javelin there's a lot of controversy on whether or not she's overpowered, but I'd say that Guardian's in a really good spot right now in terms of balance, and should be let in at the same time as Javelin.

    Guardian is just incredibly poorly designed, so that she will either be very weak or a balance problem. Her design is more intrinsically dangerous to balance than even Javelin's, so they need to be very careful with her tuning or just redo her.

    She Naturally has the potential to:

    1) Make EV attack unstoppable.
    2) Make Firesupports Obsolete in non-EV situations
    3) Make certain defense points unbreakable with stacking. Which you can do easily because 2 means you don't give much combat power up by stacking her, if any at all.

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 4,092

    @woodchip said:

    @Cordyceps said:
    It's pretty incredible how long some mercs have to be worked on before being allowed into competitive. I understand with Javelin there's a lot of controversy on whether or not she's overpowered, but I'd say that Guardian's in a really good spot right now in terms of balance, and should be let in at the same time as Javelin.

    Guardian is just incredibly poorly designed, so that she will either be very weak or a balance problem. Her design is more intrinsically dangerous to balance than even Javelin's, so they need to be very careful with her tuning or just redo her.

    She Naturally has the potential to:

    1) Make EV attack unstoppable.
    2) Make Firesupports Obsolete in non-EV situations
    3) Make certain defense points unbreakable with stacking. Which you can do easily because 2 means you don't give much combat power up by stacking her, if any at all.

    what's her Drone HP?
    if it were small enough, snipers or even people with burst rifles can take it out before they throw air strikes. Its also needs to be remembered that if she drops the drone in front of the EV while the ev is still moving, it will get crushed by the ev.

    What you could do is put it on the side of the EV so it wont get sniped.

    What is supposed to happen, if you drop air strike on the other side of the EV it shouldnt get denied because her drone line of sight is limited due to EV

    What is happening right now its still deny the air strike even when the drone LoS is covered by the ev.

    Electric Light Orchestra - Prologue/Twilight
                                                                    
  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 149
    edited February 12

    @GatoCommodore

    Yeah I mean you can tune the numbers of all her stuff so that they are still useful but safe for balance. Point is that you have to get something like the Drone HP / Radius / CD very precisely right in order to have it feel good without being too strong.

    Both her Drone and her general concept of very strong combat medic balanced by not healing leave very little room for error.

    Whereas something like Aura station or Bushwhack turret can be significantly OP or UP without really breaking the game or the characters that used them, as happened in the past.

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 4,092

    @woodchip said:
    @GatoCommodore

    Yeah I mean you can tune the numbers of all her stuff so that they are still useful but safe for balance. Point is that you have to get something like the Drone HP / Radius / CD very precisely right in order to have it feel good without being too strong.

    Both her Drone and her general concept of very strong combat medic balanced by not healing leave very little room for error.

    Whereas something like Aura station or Bushwhack turret can be significantly OP or UP without really breaking the game or the characters that used them, as happened in the past.

    if SD can fix that i just mentioned, i would consider it balanced.

    Electric Light Orchestra - Prologue/Twilight
                                                                    
  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 149

    Unfortunately it's harder than that.

    Say you do "drone has 10 HP". Then you've got something that totally depends on hiding behind sightlines to do anything, which it largely already does. But there are still so many areas out of sightline in DB that it can still cause a big issue on many maps.

    So for example, a Guardian 5 stack defending Chapel last point with 10 HP drones could still be pretty obnoxious and hard to break. Meanwhile a 10 HP drone would feel super bad to use in other contexts because it would 8/10 times die instantly and only be useful on certain points.

    The drone is a mechanic that scales so hard with stacking and specific maps that it is inherently harder to balance. Just like Aura station is harder to balance than Bushgun, but to a greater degree.

Sign In or Register to comment.