Planned Forum Maintenance - 24th May 2018

We will be doing maintenance on 24th May 2018. The forums will be read-only until the maintenance is finished.

Shuffling Teams in Server Browser Matches

stayfreshshoestayfreshshoe Posts: 674Administrator, Moderator, Developer
edited February 6 in General Chat

Match balance in Server Browser is a recurring topic. Currently the system allows you to call shuffle votes during a match, and the server automatically shuffles players once a match has finished to improve balance. This has many flaws though, as often players drop out and new ones connect, causing this shuffle to become irrelevant. The alternative is to shuffle just before the match begins and all players have connected. This does come with the downside of not being able to pick a team composition, or guaranteeing being on the same side as your friends.

Let us know which you would prefer using the poll below!

Shuffling Teams in Server Browser Matches 122 votes

Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition
81%
SzakalotNailx3mytizb4luB_MontielkokosKirayspumpkinmeerkat-OCB-WildcardMarsRoverGuzioln07hin9KeinBaumFalC_16Mc1412013auwisebkuipPtilouiDrac0rionBestfinlandball 100 votes
Post-Match Shuffle: Allowing you to create a team composition, but with poorer match balance
18%
SmoothCPTpurrfectThomaZeFireDartDawnlazyhawkeyeguy99henki000Shenaynays[Deleted User]SirBaasmrdiscoguerraPEMr.Cuddlesworthk3endoWulieDavidLorenzkomp0tfloonAgreencoolRIGER 22 votes
«1

Comments

  • itaih1itaih1 Posts: 2
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    OR: Add the option:
    IF ATTACKING : mercs x y z

    IF DEFENDING: mercs a b c

  • PtilouiPtiloui Posts: 531
    edited February 6
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    Really welcomed discussion and poll.

    Im all for a better balance in server browser.

    Team composition will be the same as if we were playing on Stopwatch, so don't need team compo. And I absolutely want to play with (not against) friends, i'd go for CMM anyway.

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 4,388
    edited February 6
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    me and my m8s dont really have an issue not being able in one team.
    but other people does.

    you cant really please everyone with this imo.
    people will need to choose

    also...
    why not both?

    Hammock - Oh the Bliss (Reinterpretation) | Far Cry 5
                                                                    
  • sdricsdric Posts: 3
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    Thanks for posting this!
    I really enjoyed our dialogue on reddit about it.

    Obviously it will still be tough to balance leavers. For those scenarios the shuffle function should be kept in addition to pre-game shuffling. If there's really too many leavers in a match and restocking gets to odd players will still have to intervene.

    It's never going to be perfect and that's fine, but it server browser team balancing is horrific right now and just has to improve. Pre-turn shuffling might already go a long way.

    As we know private servers for those who dislike it are on their way :)

  • UnrivaledUnrivaled Posts: 43

    Seems like it's shoe vs Smooth :D

  • Da_MummyDa_Mummy Posts: 235
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    I mean if you want to play party you would play ranked or casual anyway. If I join one of those browser servers I'm either just having some fun or really want to test individual skills.

  • EoxEox FrancePosts: 3,206Moderator

    I don't even know what to pick. More balanced match sounds cool and all, but I think most good players would love better team composition in the end. :/

  • Begin2018Begin2018 Posts: 194
    edited February 6
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    Of course balance need to be at the beginning of the match. Another thing, when a team is imbalanced by 2 players, the guy with the lowest score in the bigger team should be auto-moved to the smaller team.

    Now we need a poll to see if there is demands for min lvl 30 servers!

  • -OCB-Wildcard-OCB-Wildcard Posts: 295
    edited February 6
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    @sdric said:
    Thanks for posting this!
    I really enjoyed our dialogue on reddit about it.

    Obviously it will still be tough to balance leavers. For those scenarios the shuffle function should be kept in addition to pre-game shuffling. If there's really too many leavers in a match and restocking gets to odd players will still have to intervene.

    It's never going to be perfect and that's fine, but it server browser team balancing is horrific right now and just has to improve. Pre-turn shuffling might already go a long way.

    As we know private servers for those who dislike it are on their way :)

    I'd agree with the keeping of the in-match shuffle vote if the shuffle system didn't fall flat on its face and fail 99% of the time to begin with. Most players also don't understand how frustrating it is when they spam shuffle vote on the 2nd half of a stopwatch game when you can no longer do a restart vote. It's rude to do it at that point because honestly it just screws people over especially with how piss-poor the in-match shuffle system is.

    I have to agree with others that these should honestly just become a thing of the past and go; you end up getting better results when people are willing to switch and do the process manually almost without fail anyways. Granted some people are kinda asshats and refuse to do this but that doesn't change the fact that the system is already non-functional in its current state and the state of the community's size. You also simply can't expect balance to be inherent in a game mode whose main means of access is a system of drop-in / drop-out; it just doesn't work and assuming otherwise would be a product of delusional thinking, completely devoid of any logic or reason.

    I'm not saying it is wrong to want balance, do not misunderstand, but there's a difference between the ideal and the reality; much like life it is a construct which is, by design, largely up to chance. In the end, as much as we want everyone to have an equal chance, there comes a time when it is healthier to accept the reality of it and learn to either cope or adapt our behaviors accordingly.

    That aside I re-iterate the point I've made before; we need incoming players to be adequately introduced to certain core concepts of the gameplay, not just basic controls like we do now. Too many new players don't have a clue in their head what to do outside run and shoot with the current system and it creates a situation that further magnifies the imbalance issues inherent in a drop-in / drop-out system. If focus should be anywhere aside from new content and bug fixes it should be in actually overhauling the eyesore of an introductory tutorial we have in-game right now; because as it stands it's about as bare-bones as they come.

    TL;DR - Unless everyone suddenly decides to just balance out the games of their own volition I wouldn't advise expecting actual balance anytime within this games lifespan in pub games; as they are, by nature and design, unbalanced by default since it is a drop-in / drop-out system. The shuffle system has always failed to balance things well due to how large the gaps that exist in skill level are in this game and so 99% of the time it makes things worse and just screws everyone over further.

    About the only thing I can think of that would, within reason, somewhat alleviate the issue a bit would be making sure the newcomers have as many tools to comprehend the aspects of this game as possible. The more they are actually taught about what the game entails before entering their first real match, the less frustrating it is for the veteran players; which would, in consequence, likely improve the general mood and lower the toxicity making them more amiable to helping the new players and showing them the ropes.

  • B_MontielB_Montiel Posts: 1,126
    edited February 6
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    WTF : It's supposed to exist already ?

    Teams are shuffled after the map selection, aren't they ?
    Or at least your communication for 3 years always implied it.
    So this definitely needs some clarification.

    The biggest issue with post match shuffle is the amount of leavers/newly connected players that will arrive between the end of the match and the beginning of the next one.

    Yes, pre-match shuffle definitely limits team composition, but it will lock balance once and for all. This could lead to a proper removal of player cast shuffle votes.

    In case of leavers during a game, unbalancing teams by numbers, just switch the player who will be the best compromise in terms of balance. Yes, I consider automatic autobalance (numbers only) mandatory more than shuffle vote which is badly used 95% of the time.

  • K1X455K1X455 Posts: 1,892

    If you can change the noob mentality of:

    *If on loosing team, call for shuffle; if on winning team vote NO on shuffle**

    You would have solved 70% of the problem.

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 2,173

    There's the problem:

    Leavers and Joiners mid-match...

    Is "Joiners" a legit word?

    Dirty Bomb = Lawbreakers 2.0 Electric Boogaloo

  • Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    pre-shuffle with improved balance algorithm please.

    @stayfreshshoe does SD still plan to fully support and develop for browser, CMM, and ranked modes for 1.0? Browser improvements are an exciting prospect but don't direct more players where they are needed to improve balance and queue times.

    I still think ranked AND browser should remained locked to new players up to a certain level. Browser should only be available to those players if they join on an eligible player already in the server. For new players in particular this would improve CMM experience (queue times, balance) and hopefully encourage them to continue to play the game and improve.

    Excited to here about new (better) incentives for ranked play coming soon :smile:

    IMO

  • STARRYSOCKSTARRYSOCK Posts: 1,751
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    In casual, who cares about team composition honestly. It is supposed to be casual after all. Even if someone did try to plan their team, 90% of the time no one listens. And well, I almost never see anyone actually plan anything in the lobby of a casual match, it's usually just random memes.

    In ranked team composition matters, but in casual? Eh.

  • Hiding Players Level is the Solution. not the shuffle. Period!

  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,761Special Editor
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    @Eox said:
    I don't even know what to pick. More balanced match sounds cool and all, but I think most good players would love better team composition in the end. :/

    The way I see it is that if people are picking mercs for Stopwatch in the first place they'll have the core 3 mercs as usual. And those frequently change on a per map basis. Last time I checked no one leaves half way through the match to swap out Aura for Arty.

    And if everyone does have the engie, medic and assault/fire-support or other combination team comp won't matter because each team will be able to fill in the holes.

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • Begin2018Begin2018 Posts: 194
    edited February 7
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    @B_Montiel said:
    WTF : It's supposed to exist already ?

    Teams are shuffled after the map selection, aren't they ?
    Or at least your communication for 3 years always implied it.
    So this definitely needs some clarification.

    No they aren't. Shuffle occur at THE END of the match, just before you come back to the lobby page. You can open the console to see this. That's why sometimes the match start with 3v8 players...

    @Porkchopiya said:
    Hiding Players Level is the Solution.

    That's the solution of nothing. Hiding levels change nothing at all, newbies stay newbies.

  • Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    @Porkchopiya said:
    Hiding Players Level is the Solution. not the shuffle. Period!

    Cause hiding player lvls magically makes teams balanced

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 2,173

    @Darkwolf3802 said:

    @Porkchopiya said:
    Hiding Players Level is the Solution. not the shuffle. Period!

    Cause hiding player lvls magically makes teams balanced

    There is a psychological morale drop, whether someone likes it or not, it's still a subconscious mood change.

    Dirty Bomb = Lawbreakers 2.0 Electric Boogaloo

  • Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    @TheStrangerous said:

    @Darkwolf3802 said:

    @Porkchopiya said:
    Hiding Players Level is the Solution. not the shuffle. Period!

    Cause hiding player lvls magically makes teams balanced

    There is a psychological morale drop, whether someone likes it or not, it's still a subconscious mood change.

    And when lvls r hidden its an auto assume you have a @$!# team

  • ThePigVomitThePigVomit Posts: 383
    edited February 7
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    Definitely a pre-match shuffu is good.

    Keeping in match shuffu is also good, however the ability to call a shuffu should be restricted to the top half (XP wise) of each team.

    Far too often are shuffle called by bottomfeeders. They also tend to call 2nd half shuffu, which IMO, should be eliminated.

  • STARRYSOCKSTARRYSOCK Posts: 1,751
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    @Porkchopiya said:
    Hiding Players Level is the Solution. not the shuffle. Period!

    I love seeing people blame visible levels on unbalanced matches. Because CMM and Ranked are always so much better, and no one ever checks hours played, lol

  • Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    @ThePigVomit said:
    Definitely a pre-match shuffu is good.

    Keeping in match shuffu is also good, however the ability to call a shuffu should be restricted to the top half (XP wise) of each team.

    Far too often are shuffle called by bottomfeeders. They also tend to call 2nd half shuffu, which IMO, should be eliminated.

    I'd agree with keeping the shuffle as long as its removed as an option during 2nd round in Stopwatch mode and increasing the cut-off time for it to match up with the restart timer for other modes; or have it force a restart by default. Let's be honest the shuffle system is rarely used for its intended use these days and when it's used halfway into a game past the restart cut-off time, and it passes, it just @$!# everyone over; and even more so for those who didn't get lucky with the shuffle roulette leaving a sour taste and feeling of being punished for actually trying to win. So if we're gonna keep the in-game shuffle votes it really should just be linked to the restart and be one vote for both; there is nothing more frustrating than working your ass off on objectives only to get swapped over past the restart timer (eg. seconds before the c4 you just planted blows, right before the EV is done being escorted and you repaired it, etc.). Otherwise I'd rather see them just go as the inherent flaws of its current form just promotes toxicity with how it is being used by players.

  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,251
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    its an obvious yes, beats the shuffle+restart vote mess we are forced to push for ourselves; if people want to teamup there is CMM and ranked.

    Since server browser is SW focused, it doesnt matter which side you play first, as far as merc picks

    First!

    48px-First_Blood.png?version=ee44701eadae9f5eb7db0d17c0edc6c9
  • Begin2018Begin2018 Posts: 194
    Pre-Match Shuffle: Giving better balanced matches at the cost of not being able to plan a team composition

    @Szakalot : Server browser isn't SW focused, there is Objective servers too, for example Moscow servers.

  • DarkangelUKDarkangelUK Posts: 77Moderator
    edited February 8

    The problem isn't the pre or the post match shuffle, the problem comes from higher levels switching to the other team to be with other higher levels to stack the teams. Team stacking is the biggest issue in server browser games at the moment, and we're talking level 100+ switching to be with other triple digit levels. I've seen the team numbers be even, and a high level move themselves to spec until someone joins then they join the already stacked side .

    Until you stop that, when you shuffle means nothing because players will just switch mid-game to the other team. Hide levels, will do wonders

  • k3endok3endo Posts: 19
    edited February 8
    Post-Match Shuffle: Allowing you to create a team composition, but with poorer match balance

    @DarkangelUK Maybe the solution would be then to get rid of team swapping all together. As a level 100+ that gets put against teams of competent people yet put alongside people with less than 50hrs (in the same game i might add) the spot on the other team looks really, really appetizing. And it takes a lot to suck it up, fight without a decent medic and engineer, and suck up the loss while hoping that someone on your team leaves and is replaced by a player that can hold their own.

    Most of the time i suck up the loss, but sometimes when my entire team composes of all less than level 10s while fighting against a team of 50's and 60's, i just cant resist (nowadays i just leave the server and try to find a balanced match or, god forbid, use the casual matchmaking server that is just as imbalanced).

    Along with getting rid of team swapping, maybe create servers that have min as well as max levels, for example have max level 5, max level 10, max level 20, min 21 max 40, min 41 max 60, min 61 max 100. At last it will create some semblance of a team fight, not just a few gods on each team fighting alongside a bunch minions who don't know repair stacking doesn't work.

    EDIT: And i voted for the wrong option, id rather pre match shuffle not post

Sign In or Register to comment.