Underground Design Update

VilhamVilham Posts: 8Developer

Hey all!

As we stated in the dev video we want to make design changes to Underground and we want your help to do them. The maps are created for your benefit so we think it is fair that we listen to your issues and try and work out together the best way to fix them. 

Please let us know what your issues are and why you want them changed. Feel free to drop any ideas on how to solve them.

Things to remember:

  • Only post issues and solutions for Underground
  • Have open discussions about the issues and solutions
  • Feel free to post images and video's for clarity

Please stay constructive and try not to get too heated. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so be civil and remember "Don't be a dick"!

«1

Comments

  • 1, more sky access all over the map (primarily second point), there the only fire support abilities that have ANY practical use is jav and stoakers.
    2, keep the verticality theme from the first point and move it to the second, with the amount of places to drop from on the first point and moving to the second point is insane, but the map turns rather flat on the second point, I would love to see the drops and ramps extend to there
    3, make it so the map matches the minimap, I remember when it use to do this perfectly, it was a rather phallic and rude shape, so you cut of the defenders spawn from games minimap, with a rework you have the option to move the spawn around and make it so the minimap is full
    4, do some work on the balconies on first point, the attacking one is good with a drop onto the top of the objective that forces you to expose yourself a little bit, but what if the door generator under it doubles as a door generator from the attack balcony to some way to get more behind the defense. Not sure how but i am all about those flanks. BUT the defending balcony needs a load of reworks. To me, what would make the most sense is to extend it out and put a mg there, as well as a staircase up there near the top of the escalator, it could shut down the entire left side if done well and make it a tool for stealthy attackers to wipe the defense. With the setup i was thinking there would also be a clear view(not for the mg, just players) of the tunnel door on the right and maybe even a little bit of the attackers pathway to the roof (but not the roof itself)

    Thats all that comes to mind immediately but i will post more if more comes to mind
    Thanks for your time :smile:

  • I'm not very good at solutions, but I'll tell you my main problem:
    If I get onto the balcony on 1st stage as a defender, and i put down an ammo station to block the lift doorway, or proxy mines etc, the attackers can very quickly get @$!#!

  • The first attacker spawn can be camped really easily:
    Make more than 2 main exits for the spawn or provide more cover since right now defenders have full view from the medbay's roof.
    Either make the balcony inaccessible for the defenders or remove some of the covers so attackers could fight back from downstairs without being forced to take the lift.
    Provide more covers and alternative routes on the long hall between 1st and 2nd objective.

  • first obj
    open the balcony a bit more,maybe on both sides,and make 1 side closed for defenders so attackers have a way out of spawn,like on dome first objective
    remove everything from the roof so u can airstrike or laser better
    and those yellow pipes need a rework
    second obj
    open up left side (gen room) alot,most of the times in public people just camp there with 2 heal stations and a rhino/nader or something and u can't push without a fragger or nader
    oh and mines on every corner
    right side (gas tunnel) is fine,kind of
    maybe remove the doors behind the objective and make a ramp for defenders
    so attackers can't go in the spawn area
    oh and rework the objective plant area somehow,i don't have any ideas

    Castle is sick btw
    :smile:

  • EoxEox FrancePosts: 3,031Moderator

    1st objective makes it way too easy for defenders to spawncamp the attackers with too many powerful sighlines and guarding spots. Also if they start to take the elevator balcony you are in for a frustrating match as they will be able to cover the whole area as well as denying you access to the elevator. Preventing defenders from reaching the balcony could be something nice to do, so at least defenders can't reach such a powerful defensive position that easly. Bringing a bit more cover in front of the two main spawn exits could also be really nice.

  • kopyrightkopyright Posts: 440
    edited December 2017

    From a narrative point of view it doesn't make too much sense that blowing up a generator will make the gas go away in the escalator area when it works the other way around on Terminal (tunnel to the generator room/street level access to the terminal) and even Underground itself (gas tunnel below).

    Thinking about it, it doesn't make too much sense either that all gas on Underground gets removed except for the bit in the gas tunnel - which in turn only disappears after the generator outside the tunnel gets constructed.

  • Sky access everywhere, but keep the roof bar things on the first objective.

  • We should be able to put mines in elevators. Otherwise the map is fine, no need to change it.

  • I agree about defenders balcony - it just gives no sight at all, if you'd moved it more to the top and to the center to give better view - it'd be interesting and would actually improve gameplay

  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 128
    edited December 2017

    (First point)

    This plays well and uniquely and is overall the strongest point in the map. There are some issues:

    1) Air support is not useful enough overall. This is true throughout Underground, and especially on point 1, leading to an unfortunately strong Aura station position in the corner behind the medbay. That spot is hard to attack from every angle, because the medbay offers no good angles on it.

    Opening up the 'windows' so air support is more consistent and especially so it can hit that corner would be good. In general, the windows are pretty anti-intuitive anyway and I don't think they add anything very valuable, so it might be worth looking at just making the ceiling blown open.

    2) If Defenders can hold the elevator high ground the game becomes really stompy. And it is pretty easy to do especially with the help of an ammo station block. One way to make this hold a little harder might be to reduce the AoE of the elevator sound, so that a defender at the ammo station overlook can't reliably cover the elevator exit at the same time. Or maybe just open up the elevator a little bit so attackers coming out of it aren't as vulnerable.

    (Second 'point')

    The hall run offers a nice contrast to the rest of the map, but it's over too quickly and also unclear in how it works. Usually, defenders only hold it for a couple spawn waves (outside of really 1 sided stomps). It would be better if the attacker spawn advance was less aggressive.

    But probably it should be redesigned so that the 'advance' trigger is clear. One issue with making this phase more important, which it should be, is that it would probably lead to frustration if it was challenging while the advance mechanic was still unclear.

    (Third point)

    Air support is very weak here, especially on defense, but that might be ok if airsupport was more useful on the rest of the map.

    The big issue is that too much of the last point is decided by the generator. While the generator is down, it is very hard for attackers to progress because the right flank through the gas tunnel is weak. If you advance out of the tunnel you have no room to retreat and very little cover. So both left routes are overall better for attackers and the gas generator isn't very important.

    Once the generator is up defenders are funneled really hard through the leftside door. The central walkway to the site is obviously a death trap against a setup enemy team. So the strategy is pretty 1 dimensional: push left hard to set up generator, and then camp on the left side.

    So one fix that comes to mind would be to change the unblockable defender spawn to the 'right' side (gas tunnel), so that you really need both generators established in order to set up the full lockdown. So if you have the main generator up but not the gas tunnel gen, the enemies can get to the 'right' side of the site somewhat safely, but if you have both then attackers holding gas tunnel balcony can punish. Also, I might consider changing the gas gen exit area so that attackers coming out of tunnel have a bit more room to maneuver.

    Also, the generator room is just too good. Whoever is holding it has a huge advantage because the window is narrow enough to make explosive counterplay difficult while preventing gun kills from being finished. Bigger windows would help balance out the map.

    Post edited by woodchip on
  • Kopyright is right. In the middle stage, lift area should be an objective or capturing point (like in terminal map)

  • BerylRdmBerylRdm Posts: 675

    Underground is my favourite map and I think it's perfect as it is now. Thank you.

    Hey, hey look! It's a goddamn signature!
  • LifeupOmegaLifeupOmega Posts: 2,028
    edited December 2017

    Make balcony harder for defenders to get to on first, and change the 2 spawn > new spawn to a one time flag cap or something more fun than "oh they're here now". That's literally it.

    Wahey.

    Reminder that it's always okay to vote kick a sniper, no matter how well they're doing.
  • While the elevators are nice thematically, they are a problem gameplay wise do to how they constrict players movement as well as putting them in annoying situations (such as the door opening on a mine)

    Replacing the elevators with stairs is probably a good bet. I think the only one that's OK to leave as is would be the one from the bottom of the staircase at the first point defenders spawn.

    Attackers being Spawn Camped is also a big problem. While they have the high ground initially, they are forced into one of 2 low ground sniper alleys that are really problematic. Give attackers some better cover here as well as possibly a 3rd route out of the spawn area.

    At the final point, attackers seem to mostly gravitate to the generator room and don't use the gas route all that much once it's unlocked. Make it more obvious that it's there and make the generator room a bit more open so it's harder for attackers to camp. That way they'll think about using a different route more often.

  • I agree with most that the biggest problem is the Elevators on the balcony. I like the idea of replacing it with stairs, though I quite like the idea of doubling it up, so an elevator + stairs so less of a choke point but the original idea is intact.

    Thematically I think it would do better to make it much more open on that balcony, maybe make it into a row of shops like Kings cross station upstairs. This would open it up, adding more options for air strikes etc on the balcony and add a bit more of a theme up there. Rather than those big boxes for cover, make it chairs and tables rather than the Phantom / Rhino choke point it currently is.

    Another thematic change that could introduce gameplay change is to make the first first area at the bottom of the escalators an actual platform, really seal it as an underground station. Maybe even white tiles etc for a bit of a colour change up.

    This would just require a trench in the middle and maybe train carriages at either end to block it off. Its kind of platform shaped already. But a trench would add cover for attackers and defenders and add a bit of a reason for that first room before going to the final pump controls.

  • spookifyspookify WisconsinPosts: 199

    @Vilham said:
    Hey all!

    As we stated in the dev video we want to make design changes to Underground and we want your help to do them. The maps are created for your benefit so we think it is fair that we listen to your issues and try and work out together the best way to fix them. 

    Please let us know what your issues are and why you want them changed. Feel free to drop any ideas on how to solve them.

    Things to remember:

    • Only post issues and solutions for Underground
    • Have open discussions about the issues and solutions
    • Feel free to post images and video's for clarity

    Please stay constructive and try not to get too heated. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so be civil and remember "Don't be a dick"!

    I think the biggest question I have is what are you willing to change? Go "big" or go home style? or are you thinking possible a few more routes or paths?

    Can re-cap spawns be added and different style objectives be added? What is the possibility of the extent of these possible changes.

    Underground is the most tubular map in DB it is also the most lotto IMO. One wrong move and the map could be over.

    Be interesting to pick your brain and see what you are thinking for this map and expand upon it :)

  • Hello and thanks for the opportunity to give feedback like this.

    My biggest problem with the map is the spawpoint system, I feel like it needs some sort of dynamic position based spawpoint rather that static objective based one so it rewards adaptability to situations better, it also makes chokepoints more difficult to just clog for defenders on certain mercs since you could enter from other angles.

  • VilhamVilham Posts: 8Developer

    @spookify said:

    @Vilham said:
    Hey all!

    As we stated in the dev video we want to make design changes to Underground and we want your help to do them. The maps are created for your benefit so we think it is fair that we listen to your issues and try and work out together the best way to fix them. 

    Please let us know what your issues are and why you want them changed. Feel free to drop any ideas on how to solve them.

    Things to remember:

    • Only post issues and solutions for Underground
    • Have open discussions about the issues and solutions
    • Feel free to post images and video's for clarity

    Please stay constructive and try not to get too heated. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so be civil and remember "Don't be a dick"!

    I think the biggest question I have is what are you willing to change? Go "big" or go home style? or are you thinking possible a few more routes or paths?

    Can re-cap spawns be added and different style objectives be added? What is the possibility of the extent of these possible changes.

    Underground is the most tubular map in DB it is also the most lotto IMO. One wrong move and the map could be over.

    Be interesting to pick your brain and see what you are thinking for this map and expand upon it :)

    For now I am just interested in hearing peoples idea, however large or small. Obviously not all ideas can or would be implemented. For now we are information gathering to see what issues the community have with underground.

  • Mc1412013Mc1412013 Posts: 1,962

    @Vilham said:

    @spookify said:

    @Vilham said:
    Hey all!

    As we stated in the dev video we want to make design changes to Underground and we want your help to do them. The maps are created for your benefit so we think it is fair that we listen to your issues and try and work out together the best way to fix them. 

    Please let us know what your issues are and why you want them changed. Feel free to drop any ideas on how to solve them.

    Things to remember:

    • Only post issues and solutions for Underground
    • Have open discussions about the issues and solutions
    • Feel free to post images and video's for clarity

    Please stay constructive and try not to get too heated. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so be civil and remember "Don't be a dick"!

    I think the biggest question I have is what are you willing to change? Go "big" or go home style? or are you thinking possible a few more routes or paths?

    Can re-cap spawns be added and different style objectives be added? What is the possibility of the extent of these possible changes.

    Underground is the most tubular map in DB it is also the most lotto IMO. One wrong move and the map could be over.

    Be interesting to pick your brain and see what you are thinking for this map and expand upon it :)

    For now I am just interested in hearing peoples idea, however large or small. Obviously not all ideas can or would be implemented. For now we are information gathering to see what issues the community have with underground.

    Quick snatch that escaped dev before shoe locks him back in the dungeon. There many questipns to ask before he dissapears

    Hey look i finaly got a sig , and nothing to put here

  • ImSplooshImSploosh Posts: 1,155

    Some complexity or layers to the maps make them tons of fun. Dome was nice before the most recent update. The first and 3rd objectives are now just awkward, narrow, and boring tbh. Different routes or paths and jumps make the maps fun. Add that layer of unpredictability so people aren't just spamming the only path with explosives like they do especially on the first obj of Dome now. \

    Just my opinion anyways. For Underground, I'd like to see some invisible walls knocked down and the map opened up to be more tailored to DB's parkour element. The invisible walls and random debris blocking various parts of the new maps and the new Dome really throw off the gameplay.

  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,293Special Editor
    edited December 2017

    I think Underground should have more tunnels/routes that allow you to drop around/ behind people in the second objective. The hallway is a constant battlezone, and a team that is well set up on the roof usually controls the defense pretty well..

    My only real big complaint with that map is the hitboxes on the secondariy obj explosions, they need to be adjusted.

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • ImSplooshImSploosh Posts: 1,155

    @Xenithos said:
    I think Underground should have more tunnels/routes that allow you to drop around/ behind people in the second objective. The hallway is a constant battlezone, and a team that is well set up on the roof usually controls the defense pretty well..

    My only real big complaint with that map is the hitboxes on the secondariy obj explosions, they need to be adjusted.

    Yooo those secondary objectives on the first obj have killed me from an insane distance. It seems a little inconsistent though lol

  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,293Special Editor

    It's like, I'm far enough away, this is fine. BEWM
    ... Guess not.

    Okay, I'm behind cover n-EWM!
    ... cover doesn't matter apparently.

    I'm on top of the the tube, no way it can hit me up here, I'm not even standing ov...
    FOR PETES SAKE. STOP.

    I don't care how much you've played or how good your aim is - If you haven't touched the game at least twice in three months then I see your "opinion" as hot moot.

  • Apparently the Steam discussion I originally put this idea in was deleted. I've seen other people here cover just about everything I've thought of for changes except for one...

    An extra objective.

    I had more details and better descriptions on Steam, but I'll just keep this plain and simple and open to further ideas. I would like to see the current intermediate area between OBJ 1 & 2 on Underground be expanded on to include a new OBj that would become the 2nd. The idea is that the CDA had a physical wall/barrier that Jackal needs to deactivate via hacking. There will be a terminal in the middle of the area that must be hacked. Once the terminal has been hacked, the wall will begin to slowly open...giving Defenders time to prep for the final OBJ.

    This is just a bare-bones concept for an extra OBJ. the main point is just having a 3rd OBJ.

    Oh, something I just thought of...the Defender spawn on the 2nd OBJ right now is a death trap. I'm not sure how it can be fixed, but it needs some work.

  • @k3endo said:
    Sky access everywhere, but keep the roof bar things on the first objective.

    You mean the big ones that go all the way across the map? Those are so annoying. It's not like you are going to stand under one to avoid Kira, but it sure does make aiming and using the laser feel unnatural.

    Yes, trying to play Arty or Kira even Skyhammer on Underground is awful. I know you can learn tricks about what little thing you need to aim at to hit stuff, but that's so dumb. We might as well have to type in a long random number to drop a laser on a hot spot as long as we just have to memorize something.

  • I wasn't aware of this thread. Well it's perfect, a few days ago I suggested a change in another thread.

    Right-side balcony (attacker view) is a problem. Perfect aiming snipers there are unbeatable because they get a direct view to the lift's door. It needs some crates there.

    Also, I love Underground (who doesn't?), I wouldn't change too much of it. But consider that it's not unusual to see base @$!# there, and it's generally attackers who can't leave base because there are only 2 escape points, too easily monitored by distant shooters.

    But really, I'm surprised to see Underground & Terminal being reworked. Underground, Terminal & (my fav) Bridge are really the best maps. I'm still not convinced by the others.

  • Begin2018Begin2018 Posts: 79
    edited December 2017

    @Vilham: Usually we fix things when they are broken. But Underground (and Terminal) are good as they are. At best you are just loosing your time and at worst we will dislike the new versions.

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