Community Market

This is very long so if you don't want to look at all the fine details then please feel free to skip to the summary at the end of this post. However, if you are someone who feels passionately about this topic, or are a Splash Damage Dev, I would really appreciate it if you took the time to read my points.

Now I know this is a very controversial topic but I have thought about this for a while now and really believe that having a community market will help this game grow. I'm going to start off with this, taken from the Steam FAQ:

Why aren't all games on the Community Market?
It is up to the game developer to decide whether or not they want to participate in the Community Market.

Now I know it's not as simple as this, but only Splash Damage can decide to do this. So I will point out how it will benefit them, and how some things may need changing if a community market was to be put in place.

Whenever people discuss a Steam community market for a game, it is always compared to CSGO, and rightly so as it is the most successful game market on Steam. The appeal to have multiple skins that you can choose from is a great option. However, after looking at prices, they may decide to open some cases to try their luck for something they want. This exact thing could be used for Dirty Bomb. Many special edition cards have come out over the years. If your a free to play player, you may have collected a few, or if you help support this game like I do, then you may have gathered quite a few. Some you maybe don't use, don't have the merc for, or in the worst case, have a duplicate (just happened yesterday, still salty). What can you currently do about that? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You can't do anything with a duplicate. You may not ever play the merc you got it for. You may not ever use it (like my friend who has an A31 fletcher in wrong en vogue pls I need it). However, if there was a community market, it would solve all these problems. You could sell the cards, and use the money to buy the new mercs coming out or new event cases. You could trade the cards with a friend so you both get a card you can enjoy. This is just one of the ways it benefits both splash damage, and the player base.

Quickly going back to the relation to CSGO, I believe it would also grow the player base. I know that many people are drawn to CSGO simply because of the skin system and how it works. There are so many possibilities and many ways to obtain the skins themselves. By having an active market, I believe different types of players will be drawn to game. As soon as people see that there is a vivid market, they may want to join in. This may inspire them to buy some cases to test their luck and get something that is worth a bit on the market. Not only does it increase the player base, improving matchmaking times and more, it also gives Splash Damage an influx of money that they can use to grow the game further.

Now, going back to buying cases, some of the cards people put up may be pricey. Special editions can be extremely rare, especially the 1st edition events like What the Dickens or Rogue en Vogue. Even some of the recent event such as the Ghost Clip and Containment War have already passed and (just assuming) won't ever return. They will be in limited supply and people won't be able to get them anymore, but will through the market. The prices will most likely be high, due to the limited supply, and may turn some people away from them, but may cause people to realized how rare special editions can be. This means that next time an event comes out that brings along cards with new and awesome skins (ghost clip and jackals eve are amazing keep it up) they may think, "Man, these are never coming back, better get em now." So they buy some cases and what do you know, they get a duplicate. Now they're happy with the card, so they keep one and decide to hold onto it and later sell it. They wait until the event is ended and list that card on the market. Someone sees it and is willing to pay the price. The guy gets his money and realizes he can now buy the card he wanted from an earlier event. This makes him happy and he will repeat the process next event. This not only gives Splash Damage more money to grow the game, but also helps the player base to be happier with the cards they can acquire.

Now notice how I only said special edition cards. The tricky part of this system is including the normal tiered cards. Leads and irons would be pointless, and there is already an in game store for the bronzes, so those cards wouldn't work in the system. The question is premium cards. The crafting system is the way to get these cards either with or without money. It gives you a much better chance to get the cards you want instead of through cases. The money route appeals to many people especially for gold and cobalt trade ups given their high credit costs. This is where the market could interfere, but could possibly help. Say I really wanted to try crafting a KE21 Proxy in Cobalt, and premium cards were on the market. I look on the market and see a high price, but then realize it's only $8 to craft a cobalt using the crafting system. I would have to grind out some equipment cases, buy some cheap silvers or golds on the market, or buy elite cases to get some fragments. When I have enough I could try to get the card. Say I fail and get to the KE12. It's good, but not what I wanted. I could try and trade it, but if no one is willing to make that trade, I could sell it. I still may not have enough, and therefore could get some more fragments and buy some more crafting kits and try again. Say I got the KE21, but it's in shard and I really wanted fragment. I could then find someone who would want to trade for it. Then I'm happy and have the card I want. Now I know this is all theoretical and will definitely not happen exactly like this. There are quite a few faults to this, as some people may just be inclined to buy it from the market, and money would be taken away from Splash Damge. That is why I am unsure in the premium cards, but am certain on special editions that can't be crafted.

Obsidians would also help out both sides in this system. When a new obsidian operatives bundle is released (please be Nader next) someone may see the very reasonably priced bundle for the three cards (assuming they stick to that). They may compare it to others and think that it's willing to put in the extra money so that they could get the card or cards they wanted, and later trade or sell the ones they weren't gonna use. This inspire people to buy the higher prices bundles, as it can benefit themselves. It also provides them with more money, if they choose to sell the card, to buy another bundle, buy a new merc, etc. I personally can relate to this, as I bought the entire Phantom obsidian bundle. Later in though, I got a containment war card for one of the exact same loadouts. I really like the containment war weapon skins, and find myself using it over the obsidian version. If the market system was there, I could sell the obsidian and use the money from that to put towards new content. I believe this is a major benefit to both sides.

Trinkets could also be a possible market item, which may inspire people to invest in the event trinkets, but the main point I'm trying to make is about the loadouts. I personally would love to be able to get some special event cards I wasn't lucky enough to get, and to sell my duplicate (lucky it's only one). I am sure many others feel the same, but currently this is not possible. However, from the points o have made above, I seriously believe that not only would the market help solve these problems, it would also help the game to grow and expand even more.

In Summary:

Community Market - Beneficial for both Splash Damage and the player base. Could also increase player base and bring in more money to grow game.

Special Editions - Allows for those to have a chance to get cards they missed, and make sure they buy event cards when they come around.

Premium Cards - Would have to be worked around or not included into the system due to issues with grinding and crafting.

Obsidian Cards - Could inspire people to buy the bigger bundles as an investment while allowing those who missed them to get a chance.

Marketers - Those who are able to sell duplicates and cards that others will find more enjoyment about will be more likely to use that money to buy new content.

Buyers - Will be able to get cards they missed or just want, but high prices could turn them to cases.

Trading - Completely harmless system that just allows people to trade with others so that both people get a card they want.

Overall - So many benefits to both sides, but will need tweaking from devs if it were to be put into place.

«1

Comments

  • STARRYSOCKSTARRYSOCK Posts: 1,134

    SD has said a long time ago that they were thinking about incorporating trading via the steam market, but that it was a very low priority.

    Personally, I don't want to see this game turn into CS:GO, a stock market with a game behind it. I'd love to see trading, but a market I'm not so sure about.

  • NailNail Wpg, CanadaPosts: 3,284
    edited October 30

    if you seriously think SD doesn't know exactly what Steam Market is, you need to stay with CS:GOO and leave the adults to do their work

    moop
  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 3,532

    finish all the content, fix bugs, launch the game, then we'll talk about the trading and stuff.

    Payday 2 Soundtrack - Hot Pursuit                                                                  
  • ImSplooshImSploosh Posts: 1,137

    @STARRYSOCK said:
    SD has said a long time ago that they were thinking about incorporating trading via the steam market, but that it was a very low priority.

    Personally, I don't want to see this game turn into CS:GO, a stock market with a game behind it. I'd love to see trading, but a market I'm not so sure about.

    If it's just trading, it will probably become an unofficial market. People will buy cards with real money or trade outside stuff. I've seen it before in some other games. Then again, a lot of games have banned it so I guess we'll see.

    Personally, I'm not too interested in trading at the moment. :P

  • WintergreenWintergreen Posts: 484

    I want trading, but as others have said this may not be the best way to go about it.

  • STARRYSOCKSTARRYSOCK Posts: 1,134

    @GatoCommodore said:
    finish all the content, fix bugs, launch the game, then we'll talk about the trading and stuff.

    Doesn't mean we can't think about it. OP is suggesting a potential feature, not saying it should come before everything else.

  • Thanks @stayfreshshoe ! Means a lot that you commented on this. I know its not the priority just now and I love the work you guys have been doing. I just wanted to see how the rest of the community felt about it. Thanks so much for listening though!

  • GuziolGuziol Posts: 280

    Being able to sell stuff on steammarket for gabebux to skin-hungry whales is probably the one thing that would make me never need another multiplayer videogame ever.

  • The card system seems to be designed/implemented with trading in mind - one time purchasable special edition RNG cases being the most frustrating example :'(

    Will likely make it into the game eventually.

  • B_MontielB_Montiel Posts: 1,002

    Everything going through the steam market also passes through the steam taxes Valve takes on every sales. I don't think it's going to be a good profit return for SD in any way compared to the required work. And considering the amount of special/cobalt/obsidian most players already have in their hands (just watch a ranked pre-game presentation), prices will fall very quickly.

  • henki000henki000 Posts: 253

    Card market is solid idea and I support it. Not imminent need, but lets say maybe next year? Only problem is Supply and demand that might not confront. It will trample special edition loadouts price close to zero. Old ghost players return to sell their inheritance, but it's more important to keep them playing than just let them sell their cards. You have only one shot with releasing markets and you dont want bloody revolution of communism in your opening ceremonies. Thats why I'm making suggestion that you can also trade special editions to other players special editions without transaction fee.

  • MarsRoverMarsRover Posts: 2,042
    edited October 30

    @B_Montiel said:
    Everything going through the steam market also passes through the steam taxes Valve takes on every sales. I don't think it's going to be a good profit return for SD in any way compared to the required work. And considering the amount of special/cobalt/obsidian most players already have in their hands (just watch a ranked pre-game presentation), prices will fall very quickly.

    AFAIK Valve takes a whopping 5%. Developer gets 10%.

    Right now I have a ton of cards gathering dust in my inventory - duplicates, mercs I don't play, primaries I don't like etc. Steam market would mean SD makes money on those cards. With the amount of special skins SD is pumping out, there will always be people willing to buy/sell new cards.

    It's just a calculation of what is more profitable - only grossly overpriced RNG cases vs 10% commission from each Steam market transaction plus reduced income from RNG cases.

    Recognize my avatar? Click here for some great news! - Mars is the only known planet inhabited solely by robots.
    K72sOh1.jpg
  • UnrivaledUnrivaled Posts: 23

    Having DB on the Steam Market probably wouldn't be very good for SD's finances, I mean why would anyone buy Elite Cases when you can just buy cards directly on the Market? Adding an in game trading system in order to eliminate the problem with the duplicates would be enough to please everyone (I guess?) without making Elite Cases useless.

  • @Unrivaled Pretty sure the prices for exact cards (especially cobalt) would be fairly high. People would still most likely result to case odds.

  • UnrivaledUnrivaled Posts: 23

    @rosully123 said:
    @Unrivaled Pretty sure the prices for exact cards (especially cobalt) would be fairly high. People would still most likely result to case odds.

    What do you mean by "fairly high"? They'd be 30, maybe up to 40 euros for the best cards? Maybe yeah

    But getting a desired loadout at a desired rarity with the desired skin is nearly impossible by opening cases and crafting unless you spend a lot of money, a lot more than 30 or 40 euros, unless you're insanely lucky. That's why people buy Elite Cases, because they're never satisfied. Buying Elite Cases would be a waste of money if you can get whatever you want in the market, even if it's at a fairly high price. In case you haven't noticed yet, everything is extremely overpriced in DB, 35€ for 10 random cards, and only a 50% chance of getting a cobalt, is an absolutely insane price. People who care about skins buy them because they're the fastest way to get "rare" cards, but with the crafting system, as @$!# as it is, you can easily get cobalts just by playing regularly. Cobalts are not rare, plenty of people have a lot and I can't imagine them being very expensive, and with the possibility of getting a specific loadout with a specific skin on the market, I can't even see the purpose of Elite Cases anymore.

    This game will never be even close to what CS:GO is in terms of skins, nothing is really valuable, cobalts are not rare, neither are special editions, the only ones that could possibly be considered as rare are the old alienware cards or stuff like this, but can't you find some keys on G2A? At least you still could not so long ago. Nothing in this game could possibly be the price of a knife in CS:GO.

    The playerbase is way too small for SD to take such a risk imo, I really don't know how they would make money. By selling Obsidians for 15€ or trinkets for 5€? Yeah maybe, but when you sell some Obsidians for 15€ for the first time, people will buy them because they'll feel special, when you sell Obsidians for the 100th time, people just don't care anymore as Obsidians basically become the norm. Same goes for trinkets, at first I could see people with the Skullsplitter everywhere with their killfeed icons, now every trinket they sell has a killfeed icon, so that's not special anymore. And when developers run out of ideas to make money, the game usually turns to a clown fest with skins that twinkle, change colors, mercs dressed as ballerinas, all that ridiculous stuff that shows that the devs have to destroy their own game to keep it alive, because if they didn't sell all that ridiculous crap they'd have to shut it down.

    I don't know what the future holds for DB, but I've played so many F2P games that I know what they tend to become when the playerbase is small. I can't see how the Steam market could benefit the game in the long run. An in game trading system is needed though.

  • bgyoshibgyoshi Posts: 801
    edited October 31

    I don't see how a trade system would be beneficial either. All that a trading system would do is open up the field to hackers and XP grinders who's sole goal is to grind as much special currency as possible to obtain as many fancy RNG skins as possible to obtain as many useful cards as possible to sell to other players. That would be awful, worse than not having a system of any kind.

    All of this discussion all spawns from the same "I don't get the exact weapons and augments on my skins that I want" complaint. SD doesn't want to make card customization probably because they don't want everyone using the exact same cards at all times.

    The solution to give SD what they want and players what they want is making it easier to obtain RNG skins and giving players a way to grind up event skins for special currency (or scrap after events). For example, imagine if the shrieks earn rate was the same, but guaranteed event skin cases were 1000 shrieks instead. In order to avoid any heartbreak on accidentally grinding paid content, skins and cards you buy with cash will remain unremovable and event skins should get a nice shiny "YOU ARE ABOUT TO SCRAP AN EVENT SKIN. DO YOU WISH TO CONTINUE?" warning that you have to authorize.

    We don't need trading, we just need an easier way to earn cards we like and grind up cards we don't. Without the help of other players.

  • @Unrivaled and @bgyoshi I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree with you more. The loadout system in this game currently is very strong,despite what others may believe. It is not pay to win, unlike other free games and the RNG is not as bad as people make it out to be. Yes, equipment cases have a very low chance of getting premium cards, especially Cobalts, but that's what makes them special. Same with special editions during events. I've seen people complain so much about 2% being so low, but if you put in some effort, you can get multiple without spending money at all. It's a major improvement from events like Rogue en Vogue where you could play games for hours and still not get a special edition card. Special editions are at a good spot right now where people may have 1 or 2 from each event just by playing the game. However, say someone who doesn't have Phoenix got a really nice Ghostclip Phoenix card. They could grind some credits to get him if they really want to, but if they don't like playing medic and they prefer playing assault, what do they do? With a trading system they could find someone to trade with so they both benefit. Or, with a market system, they could sell the card to someone who's willing to buy it, and they use that money to buy a card he wants. Same with cobalt crafting. If you really want a Hochfir Proxy, and end up getting a Hollunds card, you may be very annoyed after grinding for so long. However, with a trading system you could find someone to trade with (although it may be difficult) and with a market system, you sell and buy what you want. Of course there would be issues, and that's what Shoe addressed above. It would take a lot of time to look at the details and structure it properly to avoid issues. However, in the long run, it will definitely benefit many people, and those who don't want to participate in it don't have to.

  • bgyoshibgyoshi Posts: 801
    edited October 31

    @rosully123 said:
    However, say someone who doesn't have Phoenix got a really nice Ghostclip Phoenix card. They could grind some credits to get him if they really want to, but if they don't like playing medic and they prefer playing assault, what do they do?

    Scrap the card for more event points so that the grind to try again isn't so bad. The problem with people getting multiple cards per event is that each guaranteed card is currently about 17 hours of play time and each random card comes on average every 10 or so hours. I'd agree that the current drop rate of special cards is in a good place for a trading system, but I don't like the idea of a trading system in DB at all. There was a day I did, but it's not worth the influx XP grinders and hackers ruining the fun of the game for everyone just to earn rare and expensive cards to sell. In example if the price for 100% chance cases drops to 1500 event points, then grinding up the event card would give you 1000 event points back, so you only need to earn 500 more points for another chance at what you want.

    It would be much better to keep the RNG and increase the earn rate of 100% chance cases by dropping the event currency cost of them in the store. That way the guy that doesn't play medic and keeps on getting medic cards over and over and over won't have to spend hours or days or weeks on an in-game or Steam trading market trying to shove off all of the crap he doesn't want for something he does. That way the guy that only got 3 cards with weapons and augments that nobody wants to trade for isn't stuck with them forever.

    People will have a lot of chances to earn the cards they want, get rid of the ones they don't, we don't introduce a system that promotes abusing the game for profit, and we keep SD's love of RNG in the game, and we encourage people who only have a few hours a week to play.. to play! Win win win win.

  • B_MontielB_Montiel Posts: 1,002

    So far, except some event special skins, there's nothing rare enough to be more expensive than an elite case. Even cobalt skins would be sold cheaper looking at the amount there are in player's hands already. Keep in mind, in valve's games, the items which are sold higher than the case price generally have a way below 0.1% chance to drop.

    The only solution would be releasing the card market with a new generation of loadout cards and make everything people already had prior to this not tradable. This way, people won't flood the market instantly with duplicates and old stuff which would ruin the pricing.

  • bgyoshibgyoshi Posts: 801

    @B_Montiel said:
    The only solution would be releasing the card market with a new generation of loadout cards and make everything people already had prior to this not tradable. This way, people won't flood the market instantly with duplicates and old stuff which would ruin the pricing.

    That would completely defeat the purpose of the market as I believe people are looking to get rid of the dupes they have NOW for skins of events past that they wanted, AS WELL AS a solution for going forward.

  • B_MontielB_Montiel Posts: 1,002
    edited November 1

    Yes it would, from a customer point of view. But their objective logically is to get prices at a minimum so the high quality cards remains way above the price of an elite case, which won't be the case if you look at how many cards we have stockpiled.

    That's simple price over demand ratio : people will start selling them at a price which seems fair to them, and as long as people won't sell their items they will lower the price. And I for sure consider that cobalt won't sell for more than an elite case right at the start.

    And that's not even considering Dev's share over trades. If I refer to percentage @MarsRover mentionned, which are true, SD would benefit from the trading system on cobalt if those are selling at roughly 50 $/€, which will never happen. But this does not consider that the market would definitely higher the sales volumes. Still, it requires a lot of work, for very few income guarantees. That's surely why they did not dive into this.

    And just look how Valve is held hostage from their own system : Yes, they stack 15% over each trades. But the only items selling for higher than a key and a crate and in the 0.0x % chance bracket and below. 99% of dota 2 and tf2 items are sold below 10 cents.

  • Anyone that would pay money for a cobalt is insane.

  • NailNail Wpg, CanadaPosts: 3,284

    B_Montiel, 10 cents times several hundred thousand transactions a month is cash I'd take, thank you very much

    moop
  • bgyoshibgyoshi Posts: 801

    @neverplayseriou said:
    Anyone that would pay money for a cobalt is insane.

    And anyone that would pay money for Candy Crush is insane

    But you know...

  • @B_Montiel Just questioning how money is made by Steam or SD through trades? There's no money involved so I think you just mixed up the wording with selling in the market. That's why I've suggested starting off with a trading system which I don't really see how it can go wrong. People make their own decisions to trade what they want, and SD could even make an in game system, since so many people seem opposed to doing it over steam. There are clearly many issues, but they would be worked around if a market system was put into place. But a trading system seems harmless in my eyes.

  • bgyoshibgyoshi Posts: 801

    @rosully123 said:
    That's why I've suggested starting off with a trading system which I don't really see how it can go wrong.

    People sell NEOPOINTS (yes, on neopets), Runescape gold, TF2 hats, CS: GO skins, etc, for actual cash on third party market boards.

    Trust me, if someone wants it, it has value, and someone will figure out a market price for it. Even if it's as simple as "Pay me over Paypal and I'll trade you my good card for your junk dupe."

  • NailNail Wpg, CanadaPosts: 3,284

    "That's why I've suggested starting off with a trading system which I don't really see how it can go wrong. "

    no one will trade down,

    don't think Valve would allow SD to set up their own market , they insist on all commerce go through them

    moop
  • @bgyoshi Yes but that's their own personal decision. Splash Damage wouldn't be involved with that are therefore it wouldn't affect the game. If someone is scammed, the game is not reliable for it.

  • bgyoshibgyoshi Posts: 801

    @rosully123 said:
    @bgyoshi Yes but that's their own personal decision. Splash Damage wouldn't be involved with that are therefore it wouldn't affect the game. If someone is scammed, the game is not reliable for it.

    It's not about scamming or not

    For 1, the precedence that people can pay money for something specific will automatically set up a pay to win mindset even if that's not really how it actually works in game.

    For 2, Splash Damage is automatically involved by providing that system to players. Same reason why Steam was responsible for the CS: GO skin gambling fiasco not too long ago.

    For 3, it creates an environment that people can earn money on. Which, as I said, attracts hackers and XP grinders into matches, which further degrades the integrity of the game for us regular players. And I'm pretty sure neither we nor SD want that.

Sign In or Register to comment.