Snipers....

376E1AE459B1376E1AE459B1 Posts: 74
edited October 12 in Weapon Discussion

As I wrote in another thread about cheaters vs good players, does it -really- make a difference whether a player instakills everyone because he's that good, or because he cheats?

Player is good, he will be praised for that. He cheats, he'll be banned. For for -us- playing, how does it make a difference?
That's my problem with snipers. God-like aimers out there will always pick snipers, and so there are snipers out there who play like botters would.
To me, the problem is those goddamn rifles, they shouldn't exist in the first place. It's not quite the problem that they can instakill you, because many other mercs can. The BIG difference is that the other mercs can't do this repeatedly! Javelin can't shoot a rocket per second. Skyhammer can't spam airstrikes all the time. A shotgun can only instakill from limited distances.

Imagine if Street Fighter had a combo that would be really really hard to achieve, but would instakill the opponent from anywhere. The few guys who could do it, would always win. And it wouldn't be a fight anymore, because only one player would be involved. The other player wouldn't matter, as he wouldn't have been given a chance to fight, let alone counter.

This is exactly what good snipers are. They will kill everyone before being seen.
1. you can't spot them by the origin of the shots, because they will instakill you
2. you can't profit from a lenghty reload, like Javelin for a reload, because they can do this repeatedly. Thus if you spot them from them having just killed a teammate, it doesn't matter, you pop your head you're dead too.
Your only hope is to sneak behind them, which at best is tricky because if they see you, you're dead. No matter the distance, their rifle is as good at close range. But generally they will hide behind their team, so there's no chance to even approach. And if you manage to pass through the team, you still wasted more time than his xsec to respawn were worth.

The other aspect of the game, support & objectives, doesn't suffer from this. You can't be "that good at objectives" that you alone will make the team unbeatable. Especially when most objs need defense from the whole team. Also, improving at support & objs is something everyone can do over time. Aiming, not really, it's even the opposite as it's something you lose with age. Worse, drugs improve reflexes & thus aiming. I don't do drugs, but when I see the diff a simple Monster makes..

Add to this, there is no meaningful lvl server restriction. While there are/were "min lvl20" servers, it's the opposite that would be needed. Servers where players who are too good can't go. Of course the playerbase isn't big enough to allow this, I understand.

Talking about Street Fighter btw, I hate that frigging katana. Does it really handle lag like guns do, that is, katana hits according to phantom's own view, not the victim's view? That's a problem, the problem that close fighting games suffer from, that's not much compatible with high lag.
A stupid phantom cloaks in front of you and runs towards you thinking he's really invisible, and you laugh. Then you stop laughing when he just instakilled you from meters away, all this because, most likely, on his side he hit you.
I always underestimate phantoms because most of them are bad, but that @$!# katana always kills me even though I spotted them from miles away, they manage to come close enough before I kill them, and if it's one of those with a 200ms ping, his katana doesn't need to touch me.
I really loved spies in Enemy Territory, those required a strategy. Stealing clothes, acting like you're an enemy (that was fun), and stabbing them from the back. That's what Phantom should be, but it's not (that is, sadly, what a cobalt skin nearly is, though). His invisibility is a joke. Yeah sometimes you're backstabbed by a well hidden phantom who was standing still, and that's legit. But it's rare. Phantom's real power is his speed and that stupid katana.
So, shouldn't the katana hit according to the victim's view? Or according to the one who has the lowest ping? IMHO it's more the phantom's fault if he has a high ping than the victim's fault, plus it can be intentional..

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Comments

  • K1X455K1X455 Posts: 1,442
    edited October 12

    @376E1AE459B1 said:
    Phantom's real power is his speed and that stupid katana.

    You mean Kira? I don't see Phantom, I hear him.

    and BTW, there's a lot of long range counters against snipers. You just haven't learned it yet.

  • OwynTylerOwynTyler Posts: 319

    Biggest problem with snipers for me is balance between them... Vasilii cuz of his hp needs 3 shots from PDP to die and Aimee needs... just 2 simply cuz she's a "female" so she has less hp, so much fun fighting another sniper and losing just cuz he's "male" even thought you both were equally precise but only you died... :|

  • Of course you see Phantom, it's not like he was invisible. But yeah Kira's speed+katana is annoying for the same reason.
    But again, it's with high-ping Phantoms that I have a problem. I don't like the katana's range and power, but if the Phantom has a normal ping and runs in front of you thinking he's invisible, normally you do have the time to react.

  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,720

    The problem is that aimpunch sucks, it only affects hipfire but scopes seem and feel like they aren't even affected.

    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • MelinderMelinder Posts: 660

    I really can't be @$!# reading all of that so I'll just say get rid of snipers and shotguns goodbye.

    Yo, Big Shaq, the one and only
    Man's not hot, never hot
    Skrrat, skidi-kat-kat
    Boom

    Two plus two is four, minus one that's three, quick maths
    Everyday man's on the block, smoke trees
    See your girl in the park, that girl is a uckers
    When the ting went quack-quack-quack, you man were ducking (you man ducked)
    Hold tight, Asznee (my brudda), he's got the pumpy (big ting)
    Hold tight, my man (my guy), he's got the frisbee
    I trap, trap, trap on the phone, movin' that cornflakes
    Rice Krispies, hold tight my girl Whitney (my G)
    On the road doin' ten toes, like my toes (like my toes)
    You man thought I froze, I see a peng girl, then I pose (chilin')
    If she ain't on it, I ghost, hah, look at your nose (check your nose, fam)
    You donut, nose long like garden hose

    I tell her man's not hot, I tell her man's not hot
    The girl told me, "Take off your jacket"
    I said, "Babes, man's not hot" (never hot)
    I tell her man's not hot (never hot)
    I tell her man's not hot (never hot)
    The girl told me, "Take off your jacket"
    I said, "Babes, man's not hot" (never hot)

    Hop out the four-door with the .44, it was one, two, three and four (us man)
    Chillin' in the corridor (yo), your dad is forty-four
    And he's still callin' man for a draw (look at him), let him know
    When I see him, I'm gonna spin his jaw (finished)
    Take man's Twix by force (take it), send man's shop by force (send him)
    Your girl knows I've got the sauce (flexin'), no ketchup (none)
    Just sauce (saucy), raw sauce
    Ah, yo, boom, ah

    The ting goes skrrrahh, pap, pap, ka-ka-ka
    Skidiki-pap-pap, and a pu-pu-pudrrrr-boom
    Skya, du-du-ku-ku-dun-dun
    Poom, poom, you dun know

    I tell her man's not hot (man's not), I tell her man's not hot (never hot)
    The girl told me, "Take off your jacket"
    I said, "Babes, man's not hot" (never hot)
    I tell her man's not hot
    I tell her man's not hot (never hot)
    The girl told me, "Take off your jacket"
    I said, "Babes, man's not hot"

    Man can never be hot (never hot), perspiration ting (spray dat)
    Lynx Effect (come on), you didn't hear me, did you? (nah)
    Use roll-on (use that), or spray
    But either way, A-B-C-D (alphabet ting)

    The ting goes skrrrahh, pap, pap, ka-ka-ka
    Skidiki-pap-pap, and a pu-pu-pudrrrr-boom
    Skya, du-du-ku-ku-dun-dun
    Poom, poom, you dun know

    Big Shaq, man's not hot
    I tell her man's not hot (never hot)
    40 degrees and man's not hot (come on)
    Yo, in the sauna, man's not hot (never hot)
    Yeah, skidika-pap-pap

  • NailNail Wpg, CanadaPosts: 3,266

    snipers and shotguns exist, they're NOT going away. don't like it, find a shooter without them

    moop
  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 1,636

    @Nail said:
    snipers and shotguns exist, they're NOT going away. don't like it, find a shooter without them

    LAWBREAKERS

    Though, not sure if gunslinger counts... :p

    PC master race and console peasant jokes were never funny.
    Instead, there's two kinds of people: Those who don't get fooled by corporations and those who are their corporate slaves.

  • SorotiaSorotia Posts: 1,316

    @TheStrangerous said:

    @Nail said:
    snipers and shotguns exist, they're NOT going away. don't like it, find a shooter without them

    LAWBREAKERS

    Though, not sure if gunslinger counts... :p

    Isn't one of his pistols like a sniper pistol basically? :p

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 1,636
    edited October 12

    @Sorotia said:

    @TheStrangerous said:

    @Nail said:
    snipers and shotguns exist, they're NOT going away. don't like it, find a shooter without them

    LAWBREAKERS

    Though, not sure if gunslinger counts... :p

    Isn't one of his pistols like a sniper pistol basically? :p

    If you say so, then count Sparks as sniper too.
    Doesn't Sniper need scope to be sniper? Otherwise it's sharpshooter.

    PC master race and console peasant jokes were never funny.
    Instead, there's two kinds of people: Those who don't get fooled by corporations and those who are their corporate slaves.

  • SorotiaSorotia Posts: 1,316

    @TheStrangerous said:

    @Sorotia said:

    @TheStrangerous said:

    @Nail said:
    snipers and shotguns exist, they're NOT going away. don't like it, find a shooter without them

    LAWBREAKERS

    Though, not sure if gunslinger counts... :p

    Isn't one of his pistols like a sniper pistol basically? :p

    If you say so, then count Sparks as sniper too.
    Doesn't Sniper need scope to be sniper? Otherwise it's sharpshooter.

    Well if you want to be technical the Grandeur doesn't have a scope and it's labeled a sniper rifle lol

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 1,636

    @Sorotia said:

    @TheStrangerous said:

    @Sorotia said:

    @TheStrangerous said:

    @Nail said:
    snipers and shotguns exist, they're NOT going away. don't like it, find a shooter without them

    LAWBREAKERS

    Though, not sure if gunslinger counts... :p

    Isn't one of his pistols like a sniper pistol basically? :p

    If you say so, then count Sparks as sniper too.
    Doesn't Sniper need scope to be sniper? Otherwise it's sharpshooter.

    Well if you want to be technical the Grandeur doesn't have a scope and it's labeled a sniper rifle lol

    You got me there.

    That's odd...

    PC master race and console peasant jokes were never funny.
    Instead, there's two kinds of people: Those who don't get fooled by corporations and those who are their corporate slaves.

  • Add Jav's laser pointer to bolt-actions when scoped.

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 1,636
    edited October 12

    Has there ever been a consideration of giving them laser sights?
    Just some random thoughts, reminding myself TF2's classic, a sniper rifle with laser sight.

    But yeah, it is near impossible to find sniperless online shooter...
    Same with Shotties, no shooter is without them...
    That's a challenge...

    PC master race and console peasant jokes were never funny.
    Instead, there's two kinds of people: Those who don't get fooled by corporations and those who are their corporate slaves.

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 3,514

    @Sorotia said:

    @TheStrangerous said:

    @Sorotia said:

    @TheStrangerous said:

    @Nail said:
    snipers and shotguns exist, they're NOT going away. don't like it, find a shooter without them

    LAWBREAKERS

    Though, not sure if gunslinger counts... :p

    Isn't one of his pistols like a sniper pistol basically? :p

    If you say so, then count Sparks as sniper too.
    Doesn't Sniper need scope to be sniper? Otherwise it's sharpshooter.

    Well if you want to be technical the Grandeur doesn't have a scope and it's labeled a sniper rifle lol

    Designated Marksman Rifle

    the DM's role generally fills the range gap between a regular infantryman and a sniper. DMRs have been developed with this middle ground in mind

    Metro Area -- Miura                                                                  
  • ImSplooshImSploosh Posts: 1,137

    A god-like aimer and aimbotter are completely different. Even people with the best aim can't hit you 100% of the time. Not to mention that amazing snipers are few and far between. It's unlikely you'll face one a week, let alone every game. If you do, you can kill them in a variety of ways as well as dodge their shots most of the time. Thing is, those good snipers will often wait for your predictable pattern or the half second where you stop or get stuck on an object to take you out. Use your abilities if you can't out-shoot them. I personally find Kira's laser to be a sniper's worse friend. They can't hear or expect it coming if they're scoped unless they're looking right at you.

    That's my opinion on snipers anyways. They've been nerfed plenty and are in a good spot. Use your brain to take them out. We have tons of abilities to combat them.

  • OwynTylerOwynTyler Posts: 319
    edited October 13

    @ImSploosh said:
    A god-like aimer and aimbotter are completely different. Even people with the best aim can't hit you 100% of the time.

    It doesn't matter even a bit if someone hits you 100% of the time or 95% of the time

    no difference if you'd die 20 times in a row or 19 times and 1 time you'll live a shot longer or somehow shoot him down only for him to respawn in few sec. or a bit more to repeat

  • SorotiaSorotia Posts: 1,316

    @OwynTyler said:

    @ImSploosh said:
    A god-like aimer and aimbotter are completely different. Even people with the best aim can't hit you 100% of the time.

    It doesn't matter even a bit if someone hits you 100% of the time or 95% of the time

    no difference if you'd die 20 times in a row or 19 times and 1 time you'll live a shot longer or somehow shoot him down only for him to respawn in few sec. or a bit more to repeat

    Even the best Snipers I've faced haven't head shot me 95% of the time...

  • If you say so, then count Sparks as sniper too.
    Doesn't Sniper need scope to be sniper? Otherwise it's sharpshooter.

    Sparks IS a sniper, and I've encountered more than one godly Sparks who instakill everyone on sight (but yeah she has to hold it). Pretty sure those are normally snipers who occasionally pick Sparks.

  • @ImSploosh said:
    A god-like aimer and aimbotter are completely different. Even people with the best aim can't hit you 100% of the time. Not to mention that amazing snipers are few and far between. It's unlikely you'll face one a week, let alone every game. If you do, you can kill them in a variety of ways as well as dodge their shots most of the time.

    lol.. dodge how? All you can do is avoid being in their sight, meaning they lock a pretty large part of the map alone.

    And yes, they exist, they will hit you 100% of the time. Assuming they aren't botting, since they're still there.
    I'd even think a guy hitting you 100% of the time has less chances to be botting. A botter who's not an idiot will prefer to be less "assisted" not to be detected.

    Now as I wrote in another thread, I've played against teams with such players, that ended up losing, because they are only there for frags, they don't give a @$!# about the objectives, and sometimes the entire team is there just for frags. But even winning like this isn't fun.

  • KiraysKirays Posts: 1,349Moderator

    I agree to some extend. In their current state snipers are too rewarding.

    You don't necessarily have to hit the head at all times - two body shots take down most mercs and even if you are not able to pull of the second shot the first one deals enough damage for the enemy to seek medical attention. The pressure never withdraws due to the high fire rate.

    By the way, I'm moving this thread to weapon discussions.

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 1,636

    Did arena shooter genre have headshots?
    I know UT series has it with sharpshooting weapons, but I do not reckon them in Quake 3 Arena.

    PC master race and console peasant jokes were never funny.
    Instead, there's two kinds of people: Those who don't get fooled by corporations and those who are their corporate slaves.

  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,720

    @GatoCommodore said:

    @Sorotia said:

    @TheStrangerous said:

    @Sorotia said:

    @TheStrangerous said:

    @Nail said:
    snipers and shotguns exist, they're NOT going away. don't like it, find a shooter without them

    LAWBREAKERS

    Though, not sure if gunslinger counts... :p

    Isn't one of his pistols like a sniper pistol basically? :p

    If you say so, then count Sparks as sniper too.
    Doesn't Sniper need scope to be sniper? Otherwise it's sharpshooter.

    Well if you want to be technical the Grandeur doesn't have a scope and it's labeled a sniper rifle lol

    Designated Marksman Rifle

    the DM's role generally fills the range gap between a regular infantryman and a sniper. DMRs have been developed with this middle ground in mind

    Then the Grandeur needs to not 1 shot Aura and Sparks to the head, and far more consistent accuracy from the hip. Because as a DMR it's ok, but not as good as it could be.

    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • NailNail Wpg, CanadaPosts: 3,266

    @TheStrangerous said:

    @Nail said:
    snipers and shotguns exist, they're NOT going away. don't like it, find a shooter without them

    LAWBREAKERS

    Though, not sure if gunslinger counts... :p

    well there you go, a game you can play, have fun

    btw, I never even implied they didn't exist, just you should go play one without the dreaded weapons that you can't seem to cope with

    moop
  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 3,514

    @watsyurdeal said:

    @GatoCommodore said:

    @Sorotia said:

    @TheStrangerous said:

    @Sorotia said:

    @TheStrangerous said:

    @Nail said:
    snipers and shotguns exist, they're NOT going away. don't like it, find a shooter without them

    LAWBREAKERS

    Though, not sure if gunslinger counts... :p

    Isn't one of his pistols like a sniper pistol basically? :p

    If you say so, then count Sparks as sniper too.
    Doesn't Sniper need scope to be sniper? Otherwise it's sharpshooter.

    Well if you want to be technical the Grandeur doesn't have a scope and it's labeled a sniper rifle lol

    Designated Marksman Rifle

    the DM's role generally fills the range gap between a regular infantryman and a sniper. DMRs have been developed with this middle ground in mind

    Then the Grandeur needs to not 1 shot Aura and Sparks to the head, and far more consistent accuracy from the hip. Because as a DMR it's ok, but not as good as it could be.

    grandeur need to be able to kill squishies in 2 shot

    Metro Area -- Miura                                                                  
  • henki000henki000 Posts: 253
    edited October 15

    I'm the only one who thinks that snipers need damage buff? Come on people, there is explosives, airforces and invisible katanas, but one hit sniper is too much? Look, 2 hits is almost same as 1 hit. Usually you are already losing in reaction time, if you get hit in first shot. Unless you are running with group, snipers generally arent. And those good snipers run with group and check corners with their abilities. It's not their weapon that makes them good, its their abilities.

  • @henki000 said:
    I'm the only one who thinks that snipers need damage buff? Come on people, there is explosives, airforces and invisible katanas

    ..and those are limited
    (and katana is annoying)

    even if snipers had a 10sec reload, you still couldn't compare them to javelin or air support mercs. But they don't, they can spam instakills as they like.

  • henki000henki000 Posts: 253

    @376E1AE459B1

    Not very limited if you can stack your team with those mercs. Think about dream strategy. You have 7 teammates and you all have skyhammer in their squad. One throws airstrikes, hit k and swap to arty or medic depending cooldown situation. Those lone sniper wolfs cant repair that EV then?

    This game is not about killing, it's about winning. If you kill one, you have to deal with rest of the team as well.

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