New Merc: Guardian

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Comments

  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,687

    @GatoCommodore said:

    @AlbinMatt said:
    1. Guardian. Really now? Guardian? SD, with such interesting characters can you guys not come up with better names?

    yea we have a guy marking artillery called arty
    we have a guy slinging frag grenade called fragger
    we have a girl with proximity mine called proxy

    you want what? guardy?

    Don't forget the master of @$!# posting Memer

    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 81

    @Demolama said:
    A medic that cannot heal is a wasted space on the team. Even though sparks can't do a lot of healing she still has the ability.

    I mean her ability seems super useful especially stacked with aura/turtle. But it seems real awkward to have her as the medic in your squad and then still 100% rely on someone else playing medic to heal.

    Just doesn't fit to me. I would rather she was an engineer so the turtle+guardian stack wasn't efficient. Right now she's a half medic who synergizes incredibly well with the already annoying aura + turtle combo.

  • Lord_CoctusLord_Coctus Posts: 1,905

    A well aimed Stokes or a Phantom could ruin it.

    My aim is as great as a beautiful Proxy.

    Neither of the two exist.
  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 81
    edited October 5

    @Lord_Coctus said:
    A well aimed Stokes or a Phantom could ruin it.

    Well, yeah. It'll have counters, at least in the form of phantom. But this is definitely a huge buff to the combo, which was already strong. Turtle+aura+AR wielding teammate just got a giant upgrade.

    And given how weak her medic kit is outside of the droid, it seems like you would really want to play her as part of an aura stack. Aura+Guardian's kits each remove the other's weaknesses (aura station is an explosive trap, aura occasionally dies to a nice chain of headshots giving the aoe rez a rare time to shine, Guardian can't actually heal).

  • neverplayseriouneverplayseriou Posts: 1,244

    @Lord_Coctus said:
    A well aimed Stokes or a Phantom could ruin it.

    Stoker just blocks the team from pushing with his molly and I'm fairly certain his molotov in nade form gets destroyed by Guardian's trophy system.

    Phantom well gl getting close to anything with that cloak...

  • STARRYSOCKSTARRYSOCK Posts: 1,012

    @Demolama said:
    A medic that cannot heal is a wasted space on the team. Even though sparks can't do a lot of healing she still has the ability.

    That's like saying anyone who isn't a medic is a waste of space. She does a lot of other things.
    I mean, blocking airstrikes and explosives from the EV or camps really sounds like a wasted spot to you?
    She's not a typical medic, but that doesn't mean she's useless. Realistically she's a defensive assault merc with medic capabilities.

    And this is coming from an actual medic main, someone with 350 something hours on aura alone.

  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 81

    @STARRYSOCK said:

    @Demolama said:
    A medic that cannot heal is a wasted space on the team. Even though sparks can't do a lot of healing she still has the ability.

    That's like saying anyone who isn't a medic is a waste of space. She does a lot of other things.
    I mean, blocking airstrikes and explosives from the EV or camps really sounds like a wasted spot to you?
    She's not a typical medic, but that doesn't mean she's useless. Realistically she's a defensive assault merc with medic capabilities.

    And this is coming from an actual medic main, someone with 350 something hours on aura alone.

    She is kind of a waste of space in a squad. She's really only desirable if your team has at least 1 other medic and is also running some defensive deployables. I can buy that she's going to be strong, but it seems inevitable that she'll be the most niche merc on the roster.

  • OwynTylerOwynTyler Posts: 314

    wtf airstrike was a projectile you could shoot down?! :open_mouth:

  • @neverplayseriou said:

    as I said before anyone with a brain should realise how op she's gonna be when used in a combo with aura and turtle.

    For some reason, they just ain't getting it....

    Good lord - putting a shield around another Shield then drop a health station in there as well!

    WTH are they thinking...

  • DemolamaDemolama Posts: 97
    edited October 5

    Not to mention that her abilities seem to have limited range. Unlike sparks, this merc needs to get in close to rez people, which puts her in harms way. Without the ability to heal herself she will be easily countered and killed either before or after the rez. Her deployable only limits spam in a certain area, which doesn't fix the major problem of all the spam as a whole. So either she is a must have to limit spam in a single area and be somewhat limited the rest of the time or she'll just be a complete waste of space regardless of her drone ability. She just seems like another phantom, why bring her when another engineer, medic, or firesupport would be more useful to the team.

  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 81
    edited October 5

    Yeah. Just imagine how absurd it is to attack the last point of chapel against guardian+turtle+aura.

    Aura+Turtle was already good, WHILE being totally hard countered by all firesupport. This is a gigantic buff to the turtle combo that IMO probably should not go live. Its like adding rhinehardt to Overwatch if Bastion was already strong.

    I assume Kira will lazer thru the Trophy though.

  • OwynTylerOwynTyler Posts: 314

    @STARRYSOCK said:
    I mean, blocking airstrikes and explosives from the EV or camps really sounds like a wasted spot to you?

    Kira's Laser - all dead, space filled with futile attempts to stop that - wasted

  • SorotiaSorotia Posts: 1,256
    edited October 5

    @STARRYSOCK said:
    Imo, as a medic main if her aoe revive has a cooldown, she's not going to be a viable medic at all. The radius is so small, you'd be extremely lucky to revive more than one merc at once. And what happens if someone else is downed but too far away? @$!# them because cooldown?
    It's a cool idea, but it's not very practical if it had a cooldown.

    But of course she isn't really much like a medic, she seems to be more combat oriented and half turtle. If her weapons are good sure, and I'm certain her drone will be annoying as hell to explosive mains, but I'm suspicious of her status as an actual medic.

    I would hope they don't put it on a cooldown, that on top of no healing ability would totally gimp her from the get go.

    I can hope maybe she will have at least 100-110 health.

  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,687

    Inb4 her loadout cards increase Revive AoE, and it's a chargeable full Revive as well.

    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • BryckoBrycko Posts: 181

    Aight I'm gonna weigh in my opinion here.

    I like the AoE revive, but the UI looks like using it is a bit clumsy + I don't think it should have any range; you should just be able to jump in an area of downed teammates and trigger the revive like defibs with a super large range instead of casting it somewhere with that weird bubble. Shes a fast assault merc after all, it shouldn't be a problem.

    I think it'd be easier to use if it was just a circle on the ground, like Jav's ammo belt or Phoenix's healing radius. Then her hands, instead of having a weird bubble-casting thing, can just sort of pull people up from the ground like she's reanimating puppets.

    Guardian bot looks cool, but it's kind of dead in the water, and it kind of weird that it's a flying drone that you deploy and then it just sort of sticks in a spot. I think it'd be better if you could direct where to move it like a kira laser, but then seriously nerf the range. Then you could send it to protect people instead of kind of awkwardly throwing it at team mates who then move away from it.

    My biggest fear for this ability is snipers just instantly shooting it when they see it; at least when you put down an aura station you can kind of hide it somewhere behind a wall and then go to it for healing, but you need to deploy the drone in the path of the airstrike, which is usually in the middle of a combat area, for it to be effective. You need to deploy the drone in big open spaces to be effective, but if it's just static it's going to get destroyed instantly. I'm afraid it'd be like Bushwhacker's turret, which, if you deploy in the middle of a combat zone, just gets destroyed instantly.

    Actually, now that I think about it, switching the abilites around so you have the instantaneous bubble that you deploy that protects people from an airstrike and the drone that you throw down for a mass rez would be better and easier to use. Just sayin'.

    Love the design though. Kinda looks like faith from Mirror's Edge. The earpiece is a bit weird though, makes her look like an elf. It wasn't in the concept design showed in the video. I think it should be shrunk or just removed, it's a distracting from the rest of her awesome outfit.

    Keep up the good work devs!

  • scrub_lordscrub_lord Posts: 334
    edited October 5

    Why is she a medic? The rez ability seems half baked. Trophy system on an Engy makes more sense imo. I don't think she will see much use after the first week tbh. Actually I take that back. Any Korean girl character will see use by people lmfao

    Also, do we really need more mercs that shine only on defense? The idea of her guarding EVs is cool and all, but not really practical. If the team is struggling to push the EV that means they are dying too much which would benefit more from healing.

    I'm kinda over mercs who are all about fortifying positions. Takes away from the fast paced gameplay DB is supposed to be.

  • Drac0rionDrac0rion Posts: 444

    The drone definitely needs a value of damage it absorbs, otherwise as stated above, nobody is going to penetrate the double shield combo, since you can only rely on bullets and if you can see them, they can see you, so it's a dps race to break the other Turtle's shield. And even then you can't use any ability to flush the enemy out.

    It's cool that SD tries to be creative, but honestly this just seems like a really bad idea. Turtle shield is fine in concept that it can be hit by any sort of damage, so obviously mercs who have offensive abilities fill their role and do more damage to the shield.

    The drone however, if it doesn't have any limits other than it's hp and cooldown or duration, it's just dumb. As long as you keep it protected from bullets only, you can't beat your enemies if they have a decent team comp.
    Also will it require direct line of sight with whatever it absorbs? If you hide it like behind a ledge or something, where you can't reach it with bullets for example, will it still absorb everything in it's radius as long as it isn't behind a wall compared to the incoming projectile or whatever?

    At this point I'd probably even prefer the drone to apply an overshield that just reduces the explosive damage with a certain percentage on top of a tiny health boost.

    This ability alone can shift the meta so much. Releasing it with it's current capabilites will require some sort of nerf to all the deployables in general. The ability the drone has can effectively double the potential of any deployable that it's combined with.
    Try to 1v1 an Aura with her station + drone. Bushwhacker with his turret + drone. Turtle with his shield + drone.
    Without the drone, if you carry any explosive, it's easy to deal with those situations. But just by adding the drone you will already require more firepower to deal with them.

    I could say yay for Phantom, to be shifting more towards the meta with the release of Turtle and now Guardian. But it's not a good thing. If more and more abilities will require to be countered it will just be less like DB and more like OW/Paladins. And this will also introduce more problems for DB cause of the 3 merc rule and no merc limits.

    Javelin may have brought in more players, cause using a rocket launcher is fun, being on the receiving end, not so much. This merc is only here to take the fun away.
    The drone will need really careful balancing to keep it from being OP and also to keep it from being close to useless, at which point it might become really questionable whether to pick a medic with no healing.

    I'd really prefer to see SD focusing on balancing the game in general, instead of throwing mercs one after another just to counter the previous one. Don't get me wrong, it's nice that SD is finally giving us new content compared to the Nexon times, but what's the point if they can't keep things in balance.

    For my personal opinion on the merc, I'm not too excited to play her. She seems really team reliant considering her abilities.
    If I had to pick a medic, I'd pick Sawbonez or Phoenix any time for solo play. Her stats don't even matter. If Sawbonez or Phoenix can use a corner to self heal they can already be the best 1vs1 mercs (unless you get 1shot by an explosive) and they can be very mobile.

  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,687

    @Drac0rion said:
    The drone definitely needs a value of damage it absorbs, otherwise as stated above, nobody is going to penetrate the double shield combo

    And it would also not be able to block air strikes, which is the entire point

    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 81
    edited October 5

    DracOrion's post is good, but it raises another problem: If the trophy has a reasonably low number of charges / explosives it can counter, then Guardian is probably just weak without other deployable teammates. Trophy with 50% or so uptime doesn't seem strong.

    If you aren't running aura/turtle/bush and you have a Trophy that absorbs 2 air strikes or whatever, Guardian is really bad compared to a healing medic.

    If she's balanced with the aura combo, she's going to be gimped without it.

    Compare the Trophy to Turtle's shield: the shield by itself is fairly strong, and when supported by other deployables is slightly stronger. It synergizes modestly with Aura. Guardian's thing on the other hand is PRIMARILY about protecting deployables.

    Guardian's design is just problematic. I've been playing this game for a long time but this is the first Merc where I think the design flatout doesn't work. And unless SD has playtested her with the Aura station extensively I am very scared for what she will do to the game.

    I am really hoping the Trophy has less than 100% uptime.

  • blufflordblufflord Posts: 566

    Can someone explain to me what is meant by the 'trophy' thing?

  • Drac0rionDrac0rion Posts: 444
    edited October 5

    @watsyurdeal
    It just needs definite limits. If not have a value of damage, then at least the amount of projectiles it absorbs or a time limit of how long the ability can remain active.

    Forcing it to only be destroyed by bullets is ridiculous considering the possible combinations it can be defended with if it can absorb infinite amount of explosives and doesn't stop unless destroyed.

  • scrub_lordscrub_lord Posts: 334
    edited October 5

    @blufflord said:
    Can someone explain to me what is meant by the 'trophy' thing?

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_(countermeasure)

    Post edited by scrub_lord on
  • AlbinMattAlbinMatt Posts: 935
    edited October 5

    @GatoCommodore said:

    @AlbinMatt said:
    1. Guardian. Really now? Guardian? SD, with such interesting characters can you guys not come up with better names?

    yea we have a guy marking artillery called arty
    we have a guy slinging frag grenade called fragger
    we have a girl with proximity mine called proxy

    you want what? guardy?

    Well that is quite the track record, exactly what I meant by boring names. Why not have some mercs use their real names, or use a foreign language? Guess it's too late now, but I'd love to see more of Frau Krieg rather than plain ol' Nader. Just those "ers" and "y/ies" names that bothers me. Sparks, Kira, Javelin, Phoenix. Those are interesting names, far more than FraggER, NadER, and StokER.

    Rant over, let's get to Bulgogi Jäger. I do agree with the idea of her casting a mass revive on her feet like Spanish Jesus, and an engineer certainly would make more sense for a trophy system, but oh well, let's just see how disastrous/delightful this turns out.

  • AlbinMattAlbinMatt Posts: 935

    @scrub_lord said:

    @blufflord said:
    Can someone explain to me what is meant by the 'trophy' thing?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_(countermeasure)

    AW HELL YEAH. IMAGINE A JEWISH ENGINEER WITH THE TROPHY INSTEAD! Yo we could have so many koshering memes, he/she could have quips about Germans and wealth, oh yes, we definitely want a Jew!

  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 81

    @AlbinMatt said:

    @scrub_lord said:

    @blufflord said:
    Can someone explain to me what is meant by the 'trophy' thing?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_(countermeasure)

    AW HELL YEAH. IMAGINE A JEWISH ENGINEER WITH THE TROPHY INSTEAD! Yo we could have so many koshering memes, he/she could have quips about Germans and wealth, oh yes, we definitely want a Jew!

    Nah. Gotta save that one for Morty the mortar guy.

  • SorotiaSorotia Posts: 1,256

    This is why we can't have nice things, she hasn't been released yet and people already crying nerf.

    People going on about how OP Javelin's rocket is and here is the way to counter it and people call it OP.

    I think people just like calling anything that is new OP because they lose something to it.

    What....do people think that since they said it will be deployed like a proxy mine it will have the same cooldown? Or maybe they think it will have more health than a Bushwacker turret? She is a medic who doesn't give health...

    Flank her and kill her drone? But no that isn't possible...already made it obvious after the Dome Redux that people can't handle more than one simple route.

  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 81

    @Sorotia said:
    This is why we can't have nice things, she hasn't been released yet and people already crying nerf.

    People going on about how OP Javelin's rocket is and here is the way to counter it and people call it OP.

    I think people just like calling anything that is new OP because they lose something to it.

    What....do people think that since they said it will be deployed like a proxy mine it will have the same cooldown? Or maybe they think it will have more health than a Bushwacker turret? She is a medic who doesn't give health...

    Flank her and kill her drone? But no that isn't possible...already made it obvious after the Dome Redux that people can't handle more than one simple route.

    Look, SD lost a lot of credibility on this when they released Javelin. Javelin's intro video made her look really strong, and kind of obviously superior to other fire supports. And then she was exactly that.

    So when they announce something that seems like it's going to buff turtle comps almost to the point of uncounterable we're going to be concerned.

    If the trophy has 100% uptime literally only Kira and Phantom will be able to deal with it. And that would be a situation where a lot of games are a lot less fun.

  • SorotiaSorotia Posts: 1,256

    @woodchip said:

    @Sorotia said:
    This is why we can't have nice things, she hasn't been released yet and people already crying nerf.

    People going on about how OP Javelin's rocket is and here is the way to counter it and people call it OP.

    I think people just like calling anything that is new OP because they lose something to it.

    What....do people think that since they said it will be deployed like a proxy mine it will have the same cooldown? Or maybe they think it will have more health than a Bushwacker turret? She is a medic who doesn't give health...

    Flank her and kill her drone? But no that isn't possible...already made it obvious after the Dome Redux that people can't handle more than one simple route.

    Look, SD lost a lot of credibility on this when they released Javelin. Javelin's intro video made her look really strong, and kind of obviously superior to other fire supports. And then she was exactly that.

    So when they announce something that seems like it's going to buff turtle comps almost to the point of uncounterable we're going to be concerned.

    If the trophy has 100% uptime literally only Kira and Phantom will be able to deal with it. And that would be a situation where a lot of games are a lot less fun.

    You're right...it is immune to everything but Kira lasers and and Phantom EMP...nothing else could possibly destroy it.

  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 81
    edited October 5

    Imagine an aura station that also disables air strikes and explosives in the radius. That's basically what this is going to be (if it has 100% uptime). You're right that you could shoot the aura station (at least if there wasn't also a turtle shield) but that doesn't mean it's not insanely overtuned.

    How can I know this? Because attacking an aura station without explosives or air support is very, very hard. Throw in a turtle shield and good luck delivering on Chapel, etc.

    The analysis is pretty simple. Aura/Turtle strategies are already good, and a 100% uptime Trophy negates the strategy's primary, and giant, weakness. Aura is great even in a world where every fire support and explosive character counters her station pretty hard. So it's easy to predict basic stuff: if the trophy has 100% uptime there are going to be major problems. It's going to be like Turtle shield on the Vault machine gun, but now in the entirety of Chapel, Trainyard, etc. On the maps where this is strong, it will be so strong that a Kira will be almost required.

    Now Trophy might easily not have 100% uptime and I could be worried about nothing. But it would be a lot easier to give SD the benefit of the doubt on @$!# the balance pooch if they hadn't just finished releasing an absurdly overtuned merc.

    Post edited by woodchip on
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