SMG-9 needs some love.

EoxEox FrancePosts: 2,996Moderator
edited October 3 in Weapon Discussion

First, some data :

This line graph features the spread of all SMG across time. As you can see, SMG-9 is the highest starting spread.
Credits to @nokiII

This spreadsheet resume the raw stats of all SMGs.
Source : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lfrz5hOUaihkviy1VIPo4-aCy7hKnMm8y7W4g269t6E/edit#gid=222941849

This spreadsheet features the TTK of all SMGs.
Source : see above.

As you can see :

  • SMG-9 features a lower DPS than Hochfir. SMG-9 is actually the second lowest DPS after Blishlok.
  • Unlike Blishlok, SMG-9 does not feature an increased range, justifying its niche.
  • SMG-9 has the HIGHEST starting spread of all SMGs. Even Blish and KEK who are supposed to be more effective at higher range have a better starting spread (though not by a lot). Meanwhile, SMG-9 remains fairly far from their raw firepower.
  • SMG-9 has more reload time than Hochfir. It's actually the second highest reload time of all SMGs.
  • If both SMG-9 and Hochfir start shooting at the same time, Hochfir keeps being the most precise one.
  • Hochfir tends to be easier to use thanks to its higher RPM. Enemies are less likely to go between two of your bullets.
  • There's not a single moment where SMG-9 is actually the best or second best option TTK wise.

It is obvious that Hochfir became a straight upgrade to SMG-9. Hochfir is obviously better for ranged attacks, better at DPS, better at killing overall, and even better at being convenient (lower reload time). SMG-9 on the other hand does not have any single niche feature that justify it's use.

  • Crotzni is the powerhouse.
  • KEK-10 is the more stable alternative to Crotzni.
  • Blishlok is the most ranged and best damage per ammo ratio.
  • Hochfir is most stable and convenient.
  • SMG-9 has no perks at all, and falls last or second-last in most important stats.

This is why I think SMG-9 deserves a bit of love. We must give it something to justify its use, or at least making it so Hochfir isn't a straight upgrade to SMG-9 anymore. If anything, SMG-9 should at least get a better starting spread than Hochfir. Let's see what happens if SMG-9 gets a starting spread between Hochfir and Blishlok.


Credits to @nokiII

It already starts to feel more fair. SMG-9 becomes a decent a middle of the road between Blish and Hochfir, and a potent jack of all trades, earning a niche among all SMGs.

What do you think ?

Comments

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 1,763

    Hochfir and SMG9 alongside Blishlok will always be overshadowed, if any merc has KEK or Crotzni as an alternative.

    I pretty much exclusively use KEK on both Turtle and Bushwhacker, unless I wanna be creative and goof around with random loadouts.

    Fletcher gettin' Sledgehammer melee supporter.
    More arcadey, less grounded gameplay supporter.

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 3,625

    SMG-9 definetly needs some love since its the widely used primary

    give it more reserve magazines or anything!

    Bayonetta OST-Mysterious Destiny

    Bayonetta, you're a mystery
    You come along with a destiny
    This is your life, a battlefield telling you who you are
    Bayonetta, this is your time
    You're gonna sparkle, you're gonna shine
    Girl, when you fight it looks like a dance, you are magic, you're magic

    Come on, come on, come on, there's only one way, your way
    Come on, come on, come on, you know there's only one way, your way
    Dance, fight, spin around, spin around
    Dance, fight, fly higher, fly higher, fly higher

    Bayonetta, you bury your loneliness deep down in your eyes
    Sadness lies in your smile
    But victory shines in your eyes
    You're still alive
                                                                      
  • WintergreenWintergreen Posts: 530
    edited October 3

    Thanks for making this. A few changes would be fine and while I do prefer the Crotzni in certain circumstances, I still think the SMG-9 is among the best in its class and I have 4x the amount of time used with it compared to others. Unpopular opinion? Sure. It's an accurate, consistent laser and I still do well with it after the Hoch buffs. Any differences in rof/dps/spread/reload time/falloff damage are so miniscule to me and don't lessen its strength. It's the M4 of the smg world. Way too underrated in this game and I don't get the hate. Crotz vs 9 is pretty much the same debate as M4 vs AK imo. I guess it's just a gun that takes getting used to. I always tell people to use it exclusively for a day and then see how they feel. It just has a certain feel to it that I like. But yeah, the Hochfir changes did kinda shake it up a bit. I support decreasing the reload time and lowering starting spread.

    TLDR; Good case of personal preference and 'feel' over raw data.

  • GuziolGuziol Posts: 311

    I really like smg9 but it just does not perform. I remember thinking "It HAS to be good at something. I bet it has fastest reload or more bullets in mag that crotzni at least" and then checking the stats.
    Everytime i play with smg9 a bit then switch to kek or crotzni it just feels like night and day.

  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,741

    Increase damage to 13, lower rate of fire. Something like 560-600 rpm

    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • @Eox said:

    @TheStrangerous said:
    Hochfir and SMG9 alongside Blishlok will always be overshadowed, if any merc has KEK or Crotzni as an alternative.

    I pretty much exclusively use KEK on both Turtle and Bushwhacker, unless I wanna be creative and goof around with random loadouts.

    Maybe. But at least Blish and Hochfir have their own niche. Hochfir is remakably stable and precise, especially compared to the two beasts that are KEK and Crotzni, while Blishlok is fitting a more ranged playstyle with lowest starting spread and highest falloff values. SMG-9 on the other hand has nothing.

    well someone has to be on the bottom :P

  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,741
    edited October 9

    Random idea, why not give the SMG 9 and M4 dot sights? To differentiate them from the Timik and Crotzni respectively?

    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • GuziolGuziol Posts: 311

    I don't think red-dot on smg9 would be enough of a reason to use it over something else. Would be nice to have but still. I rarely use sights on smg's in the first place.

  • EoxEox FrancePosts: 2,996Moderator
    edited October 9

    @watsyurdeal said:
    Increase damage to 13, lower rate of fire. Something like 560-600 rpm

    @watsyurdeal said:
    Random idea, why not give the SMG 9 and M4 dot sights? To differentiate them from the Timik and Crotzni respectively?

    I don't think SMG-9 issue is truly related to its damage value, though the hochfir RPM buff definitely pushed SMG-9 in the coffin. I don't think either that dot sights will make SMG-9 played as well.

    By the way, to complement your damage value changes discussion :

    With 560 RPM : 560/60 * 13 = 121.33 DPS (approx.). Worse than before.

    With 600 RPM : 600/60 * 13 = 130 DPS. Probably too much. Might turn SMG-9 into a straight upgrade to KEK-10.

    @Guziol said:
    I don't think red-dot on smg9 would be enough of a reason to use it over something else. Would be nice to have but still. I rarely use sights on smg's in the first place.

    Agreed. If it was paired with my lower starting spread suggestion it would be a decent addition, but I don't think SMG-9's sights are that bad to begin with.

    @Mr.Cuddlesworth said:

    @Eox said:

    @TheStrangerous said:
    Hochfir and SMG9 alongside Blishlok will always be overshadowed, if any merc has KEK or Crotzni as an alternative.

    I pretty much exclusively use KEK on both Turtle and Bushwhacker, unless I wanna be creative and goof around with random loadouts.

    Maybe. But at least Blish and Hochfir have their own niche. Hochfir is remakably stable and precise, especially compared to the two beasts that are KEK and Crotzni, while Blishlok is fitting a more ranged playstyle with lowest starting spread and highest falloff values. SMG-9 on the other hand has nothing.

    well someone has to be on the bottom :P

    Sure there will always be a bad SMG among everyone else, but that doesn't excuse SMG-9's lack of a meaningful niche. Blishlok can be the worst SMG, it would still have the advantage of being the most ranged SMG for exemple.

  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,741

    Well what else can possibly done? At this point it's basically the Timik vs M4 debate.

    Ultimately the Crotzni is the superior gun, until drastic changes are made.

    Having it deal 1 more damage, yet shooting one less bullet per second should do fine.

    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • EoxEox FrancePosts: 2,996Moderator

    @watsyurdeal said:
    Well what else can possibly done? At this point it's basically the Timik vs M4 debate.

    Ultimately the Crotzni is the superior gun, until drastic changes are made.

    Having it deal 1 more damage, yet shooting one less bullet per second should do fine.

    A simple starting spread reduction so it ends up between Hochfir and Blishlok's starting spread would be enough at both differentiate it from Crotzni and making it much more viable than it should. Crotzni would be a power house, but way less accurate, while SMG-9 would have a worse DPS but more suited for long ranged fights thanks to its better stability and accuracy.

  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,741

    *Burst Damage is basically how much damage is done in half a second> @Eox said:

    @watsyurdeal said:
    Well what else can possibly done? At this point it's basically the Timik vs M4 debate.

    Ultimately the Crotzni is the superior gun, until drastic changes are made.

    Having it deal 1 more damage, yet shooting one less bullet per second should do fine.

    A simple starting spread reduction so it ends up between Hochfir and Blishlok's starting spread would be enough at both differentiate it from Crotzni and making it much more viable than it should. Crotzni would be a power house, but way less accurate, while SMG-9 would have a worse DPS but more suited for long ranged fights thanks to its better stability and accuracy.

    But you can easily get into long range fights with the SMGs anyhow, just a matter of tapping.

    Than and the damage will fall off so much that it'd be harder to justify it. I feel like 13 damage would help with that role. But that's just me :/

    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • GuziolGuziol Posts: 311

    Biggest problem with smg9 is that it does not have it's niche. Every smg has it's own "thing" and i have no clue what smg9 could have. Even wth lower starting spread i probably wouldn't go for it. Maybe a combination of all? Lower starting spread, a red dot, tiny bit more range and up the fire rate by tiny amount.
    Or maybe that's all stupid and would make it broken. I'm really clueless with how to change this gun.

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 3,625

    GIVE IT MORE SPARE AMMO
    I HAVE TO RUN AROUND WITH TURTLE BECAUSE IM POURING AMMO DOWN RANGE AND NOBODY GIVES ME AMMO

    Bayonetta OST-Mysterious Destiny

    Bayonetta, you're a mystery
    You come along with a destiny
    This is your life, a battlefield telling you who you are
    Bayonetta, this is your time
    You're gonna sparkle, you're gonna shine
    Girl, when you fight it looks like a dance, you are magic, you're magic

    Come on, come on, come on, there's only one way, your way
    Come on, come on, come on, you know there's only one way, your way
    Dance, fight, spin around, spin around
    Dance, fight, fly higher, fly higher, fly higher

    Bayonetta, you bury your loneliness deep down in your eyes
    Sadness lies in your smile
    But victory shines in your eyes
    You're still alive
                                                                      
  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 115

    Maybe a good niche for Smg9 would be an easier to use but less powerful kek. Lower recoil and maybe spread a bit, lower ADS recoil a lot.

  • EoxEox FrancePosts: 2,996Moderator

    @woodchip said:
    Maybe a good niche for Smg9 would be an easier to use but less powerful kek. Lower recoil and maybe spread a bit, lower ADS recoil a lot.

    Couldn't work without a DPS buff so it ends up between hochfir and KEK. Hochfir basically outshines SMG-9 because it has a much worse starting spread and worse DPS. Being just a more precise and more stable KEK won't be enough.

    I'd also rather see it between Hochfir and Blishlok it terms of stats. It would also only require to change a single stat.

  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 115

    @Eox said:

    @woodchip said:
    Maybe a good niche for Smg9 would be an easier to use but less powerful kek. Lower recoil and maybe spread a bit, lower ADS recoil a lot.

    Couldn't work without a DPS buff so it ends up between hochfir and KEK. Hochfir basically outshines SMG-9 because it has a much worse starting spread and worse DPS. Being just a more precise and more stable KEK won't be enough.

    I'd also rather see it between Hochfir and Blishlok it terms of stats. It would also only require to change a single stat.

    True. The most important objective for the SMG-9 is giving it some clear advantage over the Hochfir.

  • @woodchip said:

    @Eox said:

    @woodchip said:
    Maybe a good niche for Smg9 would be an easier to use but less powerful kek. Lower recoil and maybe spread a bit, lower ADS recoil a lot.

    Couldn't work without a DPS buff so it ends up between hochfir and KEK. Hochfir basically outshines SMG-9 because it has a much worse starting spread and worse DPS. Being just a more precise and more stable KEK won't be enough.

    I'd also rather see it between Hochfir and Blishlok it terms of stats. It would also only require to change a single stat.

    True. The most important objective for the SMG-9 is giving it some clear advantage over the Hochfir.

    In many cases its outperformed. But i find SMG-9 Shoots flatter though recoil wise for easy head shots esp when hip firing. I hear spread is bad, but i usually bang a lot of head shots with it though.

    Maybe replace the iron sight as stated with a flipup, but modify the damage cutt off range to that of the blishlock? I find the damage range to be annoying on it sometimes against heavier mercs or a more laggy server.

  • I look at the SMG-9 and it reminds me of an ump 45. If you boost the damage and lower the fire rate than it turns into a Blishlok.

    I think making this gun the longest in range might be the answer to filling a niche. I like the fire rate as is tbo. Another useful feature may be adjusting the volume and removing tracers from the gun to make it more stealthy as well Perhaps a flash hider/surpresser even.

  • aNi0naNi0n Posts: 4

    It's been over a month since you made this post, and no developer replied.

    apparently, they only attend REDDIT :/

    I liked your suggestions.

  • SorotiaSorotia Posts: 1,367

    @aNi0n said:
    It's been over a month since you made this post, and no developer replied.

    apparently, they only attend REDDIT :/

    I liked your suggestions.

    Or they don't care much about buffing things unless it pertains to the pub scrub Proxy.

  • EoxEox FrancePosts: 2,996Moderator
    edited November 14

    @aNi0n said:
    It's been over a month since you made this post, and no developer replied.

    apparently, they only attend REDDIT :/

    I liked your suggestions.

    Don't worry. The devs know about SMG-9.

  • What if the devs made the SMG-9 intentionally worse than the others, and balance it with better augments in the loadout?

    I do know that there are a lot of mediocre loadout with the SMG-9, but this would be a possible way to balance it, and give it a niche - and the strentgh of the full loadout would be the same.

    On a side note, someone suggested better sights. I literally couldn't care less about SMG sights, I can't even remember when was the last time I used ADS on any SMG except the blishlok. No reason to do so without a range buff IMO.

  • LifeupOmegaLifeupOmega Posts: 1,996
    edited November 17

    @ThunderZsolt said:
    What if the devs made the SMG-9 intentionally worse than the others, and balance it with better augments in the loadout?

    CR42, CR81 G2, and BL71 G2 exist for Sawbonez. SM41 is as close as you'd get to that, but it has the SMG-9.

    C41 and BL81 exist for Bush. SM43 is a contender but it has the SMG-9.

    Both of these lack Focus so I wouldn't bother myself.

    Nader and Turtle both have reliably decent SMG-9 loadouts, but even then there are arguably better options with better guns such as the Hoch QD/Focus, so I doubt this is the case.

    Reminder that it's always okay to vote kick a sniper, no matter how well they're doing.
  • @LifeupOmega said:

    @ThunderZsolt said:
    What if the devs made the SMG-9 intentionally worse than the others, and balance it with better augments in the loadout?

    CR42, CR81 G2, and BL71 G2 exist for Sawbonez. SM41 is as close as you'd get to that, but it has the SMG-9.

    C41 and BL81 exist for Bush. SM43 is a contender but it has the SMG-9.

    Both of these lack Focus so I wouldn't bother myself.

    Nader and Turtle both have reliably decent SMG-9 loadouts, but even then there are arguably better options with better guns such as the Hoch QD/Focus, so I doubt this is the case.

    The only merc with the strongest loadout being equipped with the SMG-9 is Nader, in my opinion. Yes, CR81 and KE43 are great, but SM41 and SM83 have amazing augments and secondaries that compliment her playstyle. I've been using her Crotzni loadout a lot, but I can't wait for these changes because I'll be going back to my long-time favorite SM83.

  • @LifeupOmega said:

    @ThunderZsolt said:
    What if the devs made the SMG-9 intentionally worse than the others, and balance it with better augments in the loadout?

    CR42, CR81 G2, and BL71 G2 exist for Sawbonez. SM41 is as close as you'd get to that, but it has the SMG-9.

    C41 and BL81 exist for Bush. SM43 is a contender but it has the SMG-9.

    Both of these lack Focus so I wouldn't bother myself.

    Nader and Turtle both have reliably decent SMG-9 loadouts, but even then there are arguably better options with better guns such as the Hoch QD/Focus, so I doubt this is the case.

    Yeah, I know that it isn't the case at the moment, but it could be also a good balance point in the future, because the augments are tied o the weapons.

    For example in GEN3 all SMG-9 loadouts would be filled with focus/quickdraw/unshakeable/extra supplie tier augments

  • LifeupOmegaLifeupOmega Posts: 1,996
    edited November 17

    @Wintergreen said:

    @LifeupOmega said:

    @ThunderZsolt said:
    What if the devs made the SMG-9 intentionally worse than the others, and balance it with better augments in the loadout?

    CR42, CR81 G2, and BL71 G2 exist for Sawbonez. SM41 is as close as you'd get to that, but it has the SMG-9.

    C41 and BL81 exist for Bush. SM43 is a contender but it has the SMG-9.

    Both of these lack Focus so I wouldn't bother myself.

    Nader and Turtle both have reliably decent SMG-9 loadouts, but even then there are arguably better options with better guns such as the Hoch QD/Focus, so I doubt this is the case.

    The only merc with the strongest loadout being equipped with the SMG-9 is Nader, in my opinion. Yes, CR81 and KE43 are great, but SM41 and SM83 have amazing augments and secondaries that compliment her playstyle. I've been using her Crotzni loadout a lot, but I can't wait for these changes because I'll be going back to my long-time favorite SM83.

    See, as much as I like Bigger Blast, I feel Quick Draw is much more beneficial, which is why I always run the Gen 1 Hoch Focus/QD card. Never used KE43, just simply because it has a bat.

    Not saying you're wrong, was more making a point that the SMG-9 doesn't have better augments than another gun - as nice as that'd be.

    Reminder that it's always okay to vote kick a sniper, no matter how well they're doing.
  • @LifeupOmega said:

    @Wintergreen said:

    @LifeupOmega said:

    @ThunderZsolt said:
    What if the devs made the SMG-9 intentionally worse than the others, and balance it with better augments in the loadout?

    CR42, CR81 G2, and BL71 G2 exist for Sawbonez. SM41 is as close as you'd get to that, but it has the SMG-9.

    C41 and BL81 exist for Bush. SM43 is a contender but it has the SMG-9.

    Both of these lack Focus so I wouldn't bother myself.

    Nader and Turtle both have reliably decent SMG-9 loadouts, but even then there are arguably better options with better guns such as the Hoch QD/Focus, so I doubt this is the case.

    The only merc with the strongest loadout being equipped with the SMG-9 is Nader, in my opinion. Yes, CR81 and KE43 are great, but SM41 and SM83 have amazing augments and secondaries that compliment her playstyle. I've been using her Crotzni loadout a lot, but I can't wait for these changes because I'll be going back to my long-time favorite SM83.

    See, as much as I like Bigger Blast, I feel Quick Draw is much more beneficial, which is why I always run the Gen 1 Hoch Focus/QD card. Never used KE43, just simply because it has a bat.

    Not saying you're wrong, was more making a point that the SMG-9 doesn't have better augments than another gun - as nice as that'd be.

    That's fair, but I'd still consider SM83 the best with that in mind. Quick draw, drilled, focus. .40 as a secondary and yeah, unfortunately the cricket bat. I do like that card you mentioned too.

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