The new season started, so where is the Javelin's nerf?

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  • SorotiaSorotia Posts: 1,265

    @STARRYSOCK said:

    @Lord_Coctus said:
    Jav isn't that bad once you get used to her.
    Her ammo could use a nerf though.

    It's the fact that she can instagib someone from pretty much anywhere in the map with no warning by just popping out of a corner.
    Sure, fragger can get similar kills without the instagib, but he usually takes good timing and aim to use properly.

    Javelin doesn't take much skill at all, which is why she needs a nerf.

    Sorry...if you're getting killed half way across the map by rockets that you didn't just blindly run into...it's player error not the game's fault.

  • STARRYSOCKSTARRYSOCK Posts: 1,033

    @Sorotia said:

    @STARRYSOCK said:

    @Lord_Coctus said:
    Jav isn't that bad once you get used to her.
    Her ammo could use a nerf though.

    It's the fact that she can instagib someone from pretty much anywhere in the map with no warning by just popping out of a corner.
    Sure, fragger can get similar kills without the instagib, but he usually takes good timing and aim to use properly.

    Javelin doesn't take much skill at all, which is why she needs a nerf.

    Sorry...if you're getting killed half way across the map by rockets that you didn't just blindly run into...it's player error not the game's fault.

    Why is it player error to be killed by something completely unavoidable?
    It takes very little skill to shoot a rocket in a straight line into a doorway across the map. Considering ping and human reaction time in general, that basically means there's no possible way for the player to avoid it.

    Sure, snipers can do much the same. I don't really like snipers either, but they take a hell of a lot more skill to play and get kills like that. Whereas javelin can randomly fire a rocket and get a guaranteed kill if the person playing her has half a brain.

    If you really don't believe it's an issue, go to any public server and watch the first low level player who picks javelin. Even the worst possible player can easily topscore as her. And with even a little bit of skill, the rocket can easily become one of the best abilities in the game, on a merc who already has an amazing weapon selection, fairly high speed and health, and an ammo ability that renders all other firesupports useless for giving out ammo.
    Sorry, but she needs a major rework, there's literally no reason she shouldn't be reworked when you consider how all the other mercs preform.

  • PtilouiPtiloui Posts: 175

    The real problem with Jav' rocket is that the skill required is only on defenders part.

    -With Fragger : the attacker need some skill to perfectly cook the nades and throw at the exact place. The defender need to recognize when a Fragger cook and when to run.
    - As Proxy, he needs to know where to place mines to make them nearly unavoidable. As defender, you have to train yourself to recognize visual and sound of thoses mines.

    But with Javelin, the attacker just need to aim and fire a rocket that will blow one or more players. There's no skill involved. Only the defender need skills to avoid death. And this is death, not just downed. Instagibbed. A noob Javelin will get a kill but a noob Fragger will have more difficulty to get same kills.

  • JostabeereJostabeere Posts: 4,224
    edited September 14

    @Ptiloui said:

    • As Proxy, he needs to know where to place mines to make them nearly unavoidable. As defender, you have to train yourself to recognize visual and sound of thoses mines.

    This game has so many corners you cannot shoot a mine behind.
    Some have side paths, but 1 mine can completely cut off a flank. So you wither have to face whole enemy team or get damaged and most likely killed.
    And you cannot lingjump away from it with every merc because SD still didn't fix the mines explosion AoE from being a cylinder.
    You could lomgjump over it if it was a hemisphere as intended.

    I don't know how many years have passed. I still despise the Minemonkey and it'll never change!
    MOFO update wasn't such a disappointment
    CMM is the absolute worst thing SD could've made. It doesn't work at all and makes finding OBJ games so much harder. I would really like to know who at SD had that bright idea.

  • FalC_16FalC_16 Posts: 770

    I totally agree with SD's approach. They better introduce content that might be slightly op so that the can slowly nerf it down in order to fine tune the balance. They even confirmed that once. It is easier to nerf things afterwards than buffing them gradually which takes much more effort on the devs side.

    Im enjoying javelin while it lasts..its so fun to nuke crybabies. Im ok with later nerfs too

  • PtilouiPtiloui Posts: 175

    @Jostabeere said:

    @Ptiloui said:

    • As Proxy, he needs to know where to place mines to make them nearly unavoidable. As defender, you have to train yourself to recognize visual and sound of thoses mines.

    This game has so many corners you cannot shoot a mine behind.
    Some have side paths, but 1 mine can completely cut off a flank. So you wither have to face whole enemy team or get damaged and most likely killed.
    And you cannot lingjump away from it with every merc because SD still didn't fix the mines explosion AoE from being a cylinder.
    You could lomgjump over it if it was a hemisphere as intended.

    I don't argue about the tweak needed on mines, I even think there's actually a bug where you sometimes can just trigger them while you're behind the wall. But despite them being a little unfair, there still require some skill to know where to place them efficiently. While Jav's rocket don't.

  • JostabeereJostabeere Posts: 4,224
    edited September 14

    @FalC_16 said:
    I totally agree with SD's approach. They better introduce content that might be slightly op so that the can slowly nerf it down in order to fine tune the balance. They even confirmed that once. It is easier to nerf things afterwards than buffing them gradually which takes much more effort on the devs side.

    Im enjoying javelin while it lasts..its so fun to nuke crybabies. Im ok with later nerfs too

    Yet we know SD nerfs things into oblivion rather than balancing them.
    Phantom used to be a mainly melee assassin. Now he's a mine disabler when planting OBJ.
    Stoker is pretty bad so is Thunder.
    The list goes on.
    @Ptiloui You also do not get kills everytime or more common if you randomly fire rockets somewhere without placement.

    I don't know how many years have passed. I still despise the Minemonkey and it'll never change!
    MOFO update wasn't such a disappointment
    CMM is the absolute worst thing SD could've made. It doesn't work at all and makes finding OBJ games so much harder. I would really like to know who at SD had that bright idea.

  • @Ptiloui Mine trigger radius has been bugged for months, same for the sound, you can trigger mines through walls but it's also almost impossible to get away from a mine with a long jump without taking any damage because of the radius.

  • PtilouiPtiloui Posts: 175

    @Jostabeere said:
    And you cannot lingjump away from it with every merc because SD still didn't fix the mines explosion AoE from being a cylinder.
    You could lomgjump over it if it was a hemisphere as intended.

    After re-reading this, it seems this is not the only ability to be a cylinder instead of a sphere : i highly suspect heartbeat sensor and phantom's emp AOE to be a cylinder too.

    PS : Ok, maybe im a bit late on this :smiley: but this is smth that i figured out a long time but never really thought about why.

  • JostabeereJostabeere Posts: 4,224

    @Ptiloui said:

    @Jostabeere said:
    And you cannot lingjump away from it with every merc because SD still didn't fix the mines explosion AoE from being a cylinder.
    You could lomgjump over it if it was a hemisphere as intended.

    After re-reading this, it seems this is not the only ability to be a cylinder instead of a sphere : i highly suspect heartbeat sensor and phantom's emp AOE to be a cylinder too.

    PS : Ok, maybe im a bit late on this :smiley: but this is smth that i figured out a long time but never really thought about why.

    It's unreal engine and SD not being able to properly making it and not wanting it to be a sphere and go underground for some reason.
    Atleast that's what everyones favourite ex forum moderator here told me.

    I don't know how many years have passed. I still despise the Minemonkey and it'll never change!
    MOFO update wasn't such a disappointment
    CMM is the absolute worst thing SD could've made. It doesn't work at all and makes finding OBJ games so much harder. I would really like to know who at SD had that bright idea.

  • NailNail Wpg, CanadaPosts: 3,198

    @Jostabeere said:

    Yet we know SD nerfs things into oblivion rather than balancing them.
    Phantom used to be a mainly melee assassin. Now he's a mine disabler when planting OBJ.

    pretty sure a lot of that nerf was Nexon's over reaction to the reddit ragers

    moop
  • @LifeupOmega said:
    Still waiting for snipers to be removed before anything.

    Why? If that happens I will uninstall

  • NailNail Wpg, CanadaPosts: 3,198

    ain't EVER gonna happen

    moop
  • JostabeereJostabeere Posts: 4,224

    @Nail said:

    @Jostabeere said:

    Yet we know SD nerfs things into oblivion rather than balancing them.
    Phantom used to be a mainly melee assassin. Now he's a mine disabler when planting OBJ.

    pretty sure a lot of that nerf was Nexon's over reaction to the reddit ragers

    So with Nexon being away for half a year or so why didn't they buff him again?

    I don't know how many years have passed. I still despise the Minemonkey and it'll never change!
    MOFO update wasn't such a disappointment
    CMM is the absolute worst thing SD could've made. It doesn't work at all and makes finding OBJ games so much harder. I would really like to know who at SD had that bright idea.

  • SorotiaSorotia Posts: 1,265

    @STARRYSOCK said:

    @Sorotia said:

    @STARRYSOCK said:

    @Lord_Coctus said:
    Jav isn't that bad once you get used to her.
    Her ammo could use a nerf though.

    It's the fact that she can instagib someone from pretty much anywhere in the map with no warning by just popping out of a corner.
    Sure, fragger can get similar kills without the instagib, but he usually takes good timing and aim to use properly.

    Javelin doesn't take much skill at all, which is why she needs a nerf.

    Sorry...if you're getting killed half way across the map by rockets that you didn't just blindly run into...it's player error not the game's fault.

    Why is it player error to be killed by something completely unavoidable?
    It takes very little skill to shoot a rocket in a straight line into a doorway across the map. Considering ping and human reaction time in general, that basically means there's no possible way for the player to avoid it.

    Sure, snipers can do much the same. I don't really like snipers either, but they take a hell of a lot more skill to play and get kills like that. Whereas javelin can randomly fire a rocket and get a guaranteed kill if the person playing her has half a brain.

    If you really don't believe it's an issue, go to any public server and watch the first low level player who picks javelin. Even the worst possible player can easily topscore as her. And with even a little bit of skill, the rocket can easily become one of the best abilities in the game, on a merc who already has an amazing weapon selection, fairly high speed and health, and an ammo ability that renders all other firesupports useless for giving out ammo.
    Sorry, but she needs a major rework, there's literally no reason she shouldn't be reworked when you consider how all the other mercs preform.

    Sure...it's easy to get top score with Javelin....but that isn't because of the rocket it's because of her OP ammo skill which does need some kind of nerf...heck you can give ammo if you're downed and friendlies walk all over your body.

    Like I've said in other threads...it's a merc ability that can kill you so many people cry nerf because it isn't fair they get killed by anything but a firearm apparently. (even that is unfair to people too)

    We don't need another Stoker debacle where a year later even after buffs his molly is still kinda weak.

    Yes, her ammo skill should be nerfed, but because people can't handle getting killed by her rocket doesn't mean it needs a nerf.

  • NailNail Wpg, CanadaPosts: 3,198
    edited September 14

    @Jostabeere said:

    @Nail said:

    @Jostabeere said:

    Yet we know SD nerfs things into oblivion rather than balancing them.
    Phantom used to be a mainly melee assassin. Now he's a mine disabler when planting OBJ.

    pretty sure a lot of that nerf was Nexon's over reaction to the reddit ragers

    So with Nexon being away for half a year or so why didn't they buff him again?

    they did, just not to original OP state

    moop
  • kittz0rkittz0r Posts: 278

    @Sorotia said:

    @STARRYSOCK said:

    @Sorotia said:

    @STARRYSOCK said:

    @Lord_Coctus said:
    Jav isn't that bad once you get used to her.
    Her ammo could use a nerf though.

    It's the fact that she can instagib someone from pretty much anywhere in the map with no warning by just popping out of a corner.
    Sure, fragger can get similar kills without the instagib, but he usually takes good timing and aim to use properly.

    Javelin doesn't take much skill at all, which is why she needs a nerf.

    Sorry...if you're getting killed half way across the map by rockets that you didn't just blindly run into...it's player error not the game's fault.

    Why is it player error to be killed by something completely unavoidable?
    It takes very little skill to shoot a rocket in a straight line into a doorway across the map. Considering ping and human reaction time in general, that basically means there's no possible way for the player to avoid it.

    Sure, snipers can do much the same. I don't really like snipers either, but they take a hell of a lot more skill to play and get kills like that. Whereas javelin can randomly fire a rocket and get a guaranteed kill if the person playing her has half a brain.

    If you really don't believe it's an issue, go to any public server and watch the first low level player who picks javelin. Even the worst possible player can easily topscore as her. And with even a little bit of skill, the rocket can easily become one of the best abilities in the game, on a merc who already has an amazing weapon selection, fairly high speed and health, and an ammo ability that renders all other firesupports useless for giving out ammo.
    Sorry, but she needs a major rework, there's literally no reason she shouldn't be reworked when you consider how all the other mercs preform.

    Sure...it's easy to get top score with Javelin....but that isn't because of the rocket it's because of her OP ammo skill which does need some kind of nerf...heck you can give ammo if you're downed and friendlies walk all over your body.

    Like I've said in other threads...it's a merc ability that can kill you so many people cry nerf because it isn't fair they get killed by anything but a firearm apparently. (even that is unfair to people too)

    We don't need another Stoker debacle where a year later even after buffs his molly is still kinda weak.

    Yes, her ammo skill should be nerfed, but because people can't handle getting killed by her rocket doesn't mean it needs a nerf.

    You never played CMM where you have huge XP Ammounts but because of Combat, Support doesn nearly nothing, if you are lucky you might get some more Badge XP.

  • SithasSithas Posts: 218
    edited September 15

    Can we please stop calling everyone who has criticism on the game whiners, yes we get it you love the game and yes many criticism get repeated a lot and yes many times the ideas that are suggested are not great. But calling people with criticism on the game whiners, doesnt add anything of value to the threads either and becomes more and more a circlejerk. Most of people who post criticism do that because they like the game too and wants to improve it.

    This is not meant for anyone specific.
    But it is seriously annoying seeing in more and more threads, post were the only thing is said that that people with complaints are whiners and crybaby´s.

  • EoxEox FrancePosts: 2,935Moderator
    edited September 15

    Coming through for some reminders, as the debate is heating up a bit.

    It's fine to not agree with what another user says, but if you want to show your disapproval, you'll have to be constructive. This basically means not throwing ad hominem arguments. For exemple : calling someone a "whiner" because he thinks Javelin is overpowered is effectively what I can call an ad hominem argument (and it's also fairly impolite). I'm just using this because @Sithas mentionned that. I had to remove a single post that did ad hominem so far tho.

    I can understand the whole debate behind Javelin, but try to remain as respectuous as possible.

    Cheers !

    EDIT : moving to merc discussions as well.

    "Explosions are red.
    Skyhammer drops ammo.
    You play bad
    And you have ugly camo."
    - Broneholm, 2017.
  • XenithosXenithos Posts: 1,033

    So this is where this thread disappeared to,
    Sees Moderator Post
    hisses at the righteous light before me

    The road is over, I finally got a sig. Hallelujah.

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