Making Phantom viable

13

Comments

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 48
    edited September 24

    My point is Phantom's cloak shouldn't be buffed because i don't think he should play like a spy or a class out of a moba with an invisibility ability. I think the cloak should be used as a harassing tool for re-positioning, lurking and small flanking manoeuvres.

    Buffing the cooldown might work but i don't think it could be reduced enough to make Phantom viable without reducing it to a value that is too low.

    I suggest knives that are thrown and slightly disrupt the cloak when thrown. The cloak would then almost immediately go back to normal, but when the knife is thrown there would be a slight audio cue and Phantom would become a little more visible for a moment.

    This makes it better for counterplay , and it gives Phantom an ability that is easy to balance ( damage for the daggers can be tweaked easily without affecting other major gameplay aspects, as well as the volume of the audio cue and how visible the knives make Phantom. ) and it would actually make him useful for locking down areas and being the constant threat he is supposed to be. He is supposed to haunt the enemy.

    Additionally it wouldn't be easy to use and still would require skill as throwing a knife at the wrong time would give away your position. So it doesn't mean Phantom would suddenly become really easy to play in pubs (like some of the suggestions for Phantom changes would) but it might mean that better Phantom players can make more of an impact.

    And with the knives, i'm not suggesting some sort of one hit kill thing.

  • TL:DR Version of this thread:

    It's always TF2 Spies against MGS Snakes, when it comes to Phantom's RA. :)

    Proud supporter of adding jetpack merc to DB.

  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,694

    Well I can definitely say Phantom can be fun to play. Problem is he is too visible when crouch walking or regular walking. I feel like he could be a little less visible when moving slowly, and completely invisible when standing still.

    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • I'm a firm believer that Theoretical =/= Practical
    This sums up school and education system ('cept in Finland), but anyway...

    Let us playtest both scenarios:

    1) MGS Snake camo, minor tweaks in favor of blending into environment
    2 TF2 Spy, ghosting around, no interaction, re-positioning.

    Play test, play test, and again play test.

    Proud supporter of adding jetpack merc to DB.

  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,694
    edited September 25

    True, but it seems like the Phantom playstyle we have now is what people want, and it also seems like maybe, we could have a whole new merc instead of retasking a current one.

    I say make Phantom the MGS Stealth merc, but make it not so sketchy. If I am walking, I don't see why I should be so visible, if at all, considering how much faster everyone will be than me. Sprinting should totally give me away tho, I have no qualms with that.

    Then we could make another one in more of the TF2 style, maybe with Rifles instead of SMGs, but much less health.

    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • I think we have already seen what Phantom was like as more of a spy character. I feel like this was what he was like at launch and it made people mad and didn't work all that well for the game.

    @TheStrangerous I think Phantom already plays like MGS snake camo from what I have seen, but ive not played MGS myself so could you clarify what you mean in regards to that?

    @watsyurdeal Phantom shouldn't be seen moving. Knowing when to move and when not to is part of the skill in playing Phantom , though not that I completely disagree with your suggestion. I honestly don't think another Merc will be added with a cloak ability. It would likely render Phantom useless and I don't think anyone wants to see two mercs in the game with a cloak.

  • @XSheepieX said:

    @TheStrangerous I think Phantom already plays like MGS snake camo from what I have seen, but ive not played MGS myself so could you clarify what you mean in regards to that?

    It's simply invisibility meter, the more you move the lower it gets (even up to negative %), of course depending on camo pattern and the surrounding environment.

    Proud supporter of adding jetpack merc to DB.

  • I do feel like Phantom already plays quite closely to that, accept any form of interaction with the environment completely takes out the cloak.

    I keep suggesting Throwing knives because to me they would be perfect for more stealthy play and they could deal a good, but not too excessive amount of damage without completely giving your position away. Additionally, in my mind it's like they wouldn't need to completely take out the cloak as they, in my head would be low velocity enough not to completely take out the shield, and they wouldn't require a huge amount of body motion, again reducing distruption to the cloak.

    Being able to shoot/melee while semi-cloaked probably wouldn't be all that useful other than for tanking damage and I don't feel like that's how Phantom should be played.

  • FishRollsFishRolls Posts: 52
    edited October 5

    Let Phantom slowely regen his energy when cloaked and standing still, and have all energy be consumed if he attacks to cancel the cloak.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 48

    See that sounds nice, but I honestly don't think it would help the two main issues that imo he has, the first one being that his ability doesn't actually completely hide him, making getting into position harder than it should be; the second being that his ability doesn't allow him to quickly pass in and out of cloaking quick enough for him to use the cloak to allow him to constantly be shifting and harassing from different angles.

    I think that if one of those issues were addressed Phantom would be in a good place now.

  • JJMAJRJJMAJR Posts: 1,050
    edited October 6

    Why not make Phantom completely invisible if he's crouching 5m near a friendly deployable, and make his EMP an actual grenade? We can buff Bushwhacker this way, and Aura would stay the same because Rhino's a better choice on a health station.

    We could still use the shimmering texture Phantom has when he uses a weapon, which lasts for twice the amount of time that said weapon's fire delay would be, but scales appropriately.

    I know that this seems like a weird rework (making something that doesn't alter base stats a passive/triggered ability) but I think this could work. It makes him able to switch in and out of cloak quick enough to be dangerous as a defensive class, and gives him an offensive ability.

    Still doesn't mean Phantom deserves to be classified as a Recon though.

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 1,528

    Least what SD could do ATM, is make EMP field a separate ability, a hotfix.

    Been proven to death, how EMP field is counter productive to camo.

    Proud supporter of adding jetpack merc to DB.

  • JJMAJRJJMAJR Posts: 1,050

    @TheStrangerous said:
    Least what SD could do ATM, is make EMP field a separate ability, a hotfix.

    Been proven to death, how EMP field is counter productive to camo.

    Yeah. When playing on defense the EMP field hurts Phantom's ability to stay in a fortified area, otherwise his friendlies would get their toys zapped.

    On offense, Phantom's EMP field is rarely justified.

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 1,528

    Since so many things are reincarnated from Brink, like that drone. Comm hacks might return, with Phantom pulling his smartphone out, and doing the job.

    Much like Spies in "Spies vs Merc" multiplayer, where spies can hack intel with their hi tech glove (hacking speed dependent on distance).

    Oh, I miss this series, shame it went Michael Bay, typical Ubisoft...

    Proud supporter of adding jetpack merc to DB.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 48
    edited October 6

    Splitting his cloak and EMP wouldn't and shouldn't imo happen for 2 reasons.

    1 the whole reason they did this was to encourage counterplay whilst giving him a nice additional ability. It doesn't fix the problem that Phantom doesn't have the killing potential of any of the other recons and at higher level he would still be just as ineffective. Phantom's presence is visible and audible deliberately.

    2 The whole deployables giving Phantom away is only an issue if you treat the cloak like an invisibility cloak which it isn't atm. All it does generally is lets the enemy know you're there. If you're in a place obvious enough that they can accurately guess where you are, you shouldn't be there, and if you are there at a time where the enemy has time to stop and search for you, you shouldn't be there.

    Also I don't think a comm hack ability would work, or fit into the pace of DB.

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 1,528

    Shower thoughts:

    What if we took Guardian's "Revive Bubble" and turn it into Phantom's anti equivalent?

    It could either work as EMP field, or turn deployables into friendly!

    Proud supporter of adding jetpack merc to DB.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 48
    edited October 8

    Though that would be cool, it would be a complete rework of Phantom and it wouldn't really assist his current playstyle imo.

    Besides it's not very stealthy :/ or rather.... Ghost/Phantom like...

    I don't actually think phantom needs a huge amount of changing... He just definately needs something so he isn't just a glorified walking EMP imo.

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 1,528
    edited October 8

    @XSheepieX said:
    Though that would be cool, it would be a complete rework of Phantom and it wouldn't really assist his current playstyle imo.

    Besides it's not very stealthy :/ or rather.... Ghost/Phantom like...

    I don't actually think phantom needs a huge amount of changing... He just definately needs something so he isn't just a glorified walking EMP imo.

    So you suggest adding a new recon, or should I say saboteur, just for this theoretical EMP bubble alone? That would render Phantom even more redundant...

    Now I don't wanna compare to TF2, I swear.
    But TF2 spy, despite having ghost mode cloak, had to use sappers up very close, towards deployables, in that game.

    The EMP bubble would be DB's answer for TF2 sapper. Since Guardian's drone deflects projectiles, the EMP grenade or EMP knife would have a hard time. Unless making them invisible to drone's vision on purpose.

    Post edited by TheStrangerous on

    Proud supporter of adding jetpack merc to DB.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 48

    @TheStrangerous said:
    So you suggest adding a new recon, or should I say saboteur, just for this theoretical EMP bubble alone? That would render Phantom even more redundant...

    Now I don't wanna compare to TF2, I swear.
    But TF2 spy, despite having ghost mode cloak, had to use sappers up very close, towards deployables, in that game.

    The EMP bubble would be DB's answer for TF2 sapper. Since Guardian's drone deflects projectiles, the EMP grenade or EMP knife would have a hard time. Unless making them invisible to drone's vision on purpose.

    Im not suggesting that, I'm trying to say that his EMP is fine imo atm as it forces you to think when you use the cloak and it makes the game more fun for people playing against Phantom. I don't think the EMP is where the issue is.

    People keep trying to suggest change the EMP ability but I think people would find that even if it was changed, Phantom still wouldn't be viable competitively because his damage output is still too low and he has no ability to improve it. And exactly... With guardian, EMP nades or knives or whatever wouldn't as useful.

    Additionally a lot of the people who complain about the EMP don't play Phantom right and they treat him as some lone wolf that goes deep into enemy territory and gets kills. That's generally not how to play him and there are few situations where that will work against good players (though there are situations) . That's probably how it should be.

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 1,528

    Who said invisible characters can't have bubbles?


    Proud supporter of adding jetpack merc to DB.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 48

    Phantom doesn't turn invisible though, and he isn't a superhero.

    Isn't his EMP already like an invisible bubble anyway?

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 1,528

    @XSheepieX said:
    Phantom doesn't turn invisible though, and he isn't a superhero.

    Isn't his EMP already like an invisible bubble anyway?

    EMP field is more like hula hop :p

    Notice how they don't go invisible and activate bubble at the same time, even they know it's counter productive.

    Proud supporter of adding jetpack merc to DB.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 48

    Phantom's EMP was given to him for a reason. It is deliberately like that. There shouldn't be an invisible character with a decent amount of health and the potential to one hit a good portion of the mercs.

    Sure it's counterproductive in some situations, but it makes the game more playable and it doesn't completely give Phantom away so it generally isn't a problem. Not for me at least.

    That really isn't where Phantom's main issue is. Before the changes to Phantom, he wasn't really viable competitively. The EMP will assist Phantom but it isn't going to make him suddenly viable. It would be like if Redeye used smgs. You'd have to buff the smoke so much it would be silly to make him viable.

    Though.. Whoo hula hoop!

  • l2cl2c Posts: 61

    I've been doing alot of crouch-sneaking about and whatnot, and even crouched, even crouched and not moving, people notice me. There's just too many cues that Phantom's nearby. That loud noise, that super obvious shadow of the cloak, AND the emp aura.

    (And while I'm mentioning the aura. Not a single teammate has the wits to actually do anything to the deployables while I'm disabling them. Whole nests, disabled, and teammates just watch like "oOo, sparkles!").

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 48
    edited October 11

    While I see where are are coming from in that yes it is extremely difficult to sneak as Phantom at times, I don't think that is the only way he is supposed to be played. I think that If Phantom was able to harass, it wouldn't matter so much that he is difficult to sneak around with. I honestly don't think he is supposed to play as this sneaky assassin all of the time. I mean sure there are moments, but at the majority of the time, I feel like Phantom should be played as someone who can reposition and flank frequently.

    I think of it like a ghost that haunts you. You are aware of it's presence, but it keeps sneaking up on you and catching you off guard and you never quite fully know exactly where it is because it keeps shifting about. That is my vision of how Phantom should be played. It's just at that atm he doesn't have the tools to be like that effectively enough.

    You're so right though, it's so frustrating to be sat deactivating a deployable only to see your team not doing anything and leaving you desperately hoping that somebody comes along and actually makes use of you.

  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 1,528

    @l2c said:
    I've been doing alot of crouch-sneaking about and whatnot, and even crouched, even crouched and not moving, people notice me. There's just too many cues that Phantom's nearby. That loud noise, that super obvious shadow of the cloak, AND the emp aura.

    (And while I'm mentioning the aura. Not a single teammate has the wits to actually do anything to the deployables while I'm disabling them. Whole nests, disabled, and teammates just watch like "oOo, sparkles!").

    That's funny, when I was crouching on the fence at the balcony, in Underground, a lv33 Fragger didn't notice me and threw his grenade down below.
    Perhaps you were spotted before, while switching positions? You can't fool real life human reaction.

    Proud supporter of adding jetpack merc to DB.

  • l2cl2c Posts: 61

    I sprinted past people who didn't notice me, doesn't mean they're all oblivious ;P
    I blame that EMP aura tbh.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 48

    I play as phantom pretty much all the time I play, and if I'm ever against a Phantom, I always anticipate them attacking me. Though the EMP is is the last thing I notice. For me, the EMP has made very little difference because generally if you EMP a deployable, you aren't in a position where you are likely to be picked off.

    Anyway, for me it's not that Phantom is invisible or hard to detect, more just that he is difficult to keep track of and doing so can distract you from more immediate threats so people often just have to let it go.

  • FishRollsFishRolls Posts: 52

    Maybe let Phantom refill his cloak when damaging enemies or deployables within his emp range?

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 3,382

    @XSheepieX said:
    I play as phantom pretty much all the time I play, and if I'm ever against a Phantom, I always anticipate them attacking me. Though the EMP is is the last thing I notice. For me, the EMP has made very little difference because generally if you EMP a deployable, you aren't in a position where you are likely to be picked off.

    Anyway, for me it's not that Phantom is invisible or hard to detect, more just that he is difficult to keep track of and doing so can distract you from more immediate threats so people often just have to let it go.

    how i play phantom is like this

    find their best player, usually its an aura or a medic.

    then kill him/her.

    its easy to run around when people cant see the cloak from medium-long range.

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