Making Phantom viable

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Comments

  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 81

    Shouldn't bombsquad NOT be on phantom cards? Seems like it's pretty redundant with the EMP field.

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 3,353

    @XSheepieX
    thats not what i meant.

    i mean phantom can dash out of trouble using cloak, tank shots and dissapear now since phantom apparently a bit more transparent.

    also phantom is getting buffed each time a new mercs released (turtle, javelin).

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  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 46
    edited September 8

    @woodchip Not really, I find it quite useful for targeting deployables so that you can destroy them after deactivating them. Idk I like it but I know many people find it useless.

    @GatoCommodore I don't think Phantom is any more transparent than he was before. Additionally Phantom will still not be viable if the only reason he is good is because he can temporarily deny better mercs from doing their ability. The EMP seems like a direct counter, but in practise, you just pick up the deployable and move elsewhere or wait for the decloak. It's a minor inconvenience but it tells you that Phantom is nearby so... idk tradeoff. And besides, regardless of what Shoe said, Phantom does not counter Jav. He inconveniences her.

    Also i'm not sure if he can actually dash out of trouble. The cooldown is long enough that cloaking in and then cloaking out doesn't happen very often.

    I still think that Phantom needs something additional to make him useful. Not something to make him much better, but just something to add some depth to his playstyle and allow him to do more, more often.

    It's annoying because he is useful enough now that it is hard to argue that he needs a buff or some changes, but he is bad enough that if you play him in ranked you are instantly told to switch as yes, most of the time you're better of as a different merc.

  • GuziolGuziol Posts: 257

    I'd love a shotgun phantom. Both for the fun of it and seeing the amount of anger and frustration it would cause.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 46
    edited September 10

    Can we keep this serious please? Phantom will not be getting a shotgun any time soon.

    I'm looking for people's (hopefully well thought out) thought's and suggestions on what would make Phantom viable considering why previous changes were made.

    Maybe we need to consider where Phantom is currently lacking before thinking about how he could be improved...

    Edit:

    I've just had another idea..

    What if Phantom's cloak worked differently.

    Perhaps shooting wouldn't fully disrupt the cloak. As in When Phantom fires a shot, it might disrupt the cloak completely, but then the cloak would automatically, immediately (ish) turn back on.

    This would allow Phantom to harass like i suggested he should be able to before. He would potentially be able to shoot form one angle, quickly relocate and fire from a completely different angle without needing to wait for the long cool down on the cloak.

    I think his cooldown should probably be lowered anyway.

    Post edited by XSheepieX on
  • @XSheepieX said:
    Can we keep this serious please? Phantom will not be getting a shotgun any time soon.

    I'm looking for people's (hopefully well thought out) thought's and suggestions on what would make Phantom viable considering why previous changes were made.

    Maybe we need to consider where Phantom is currently lacking before thinking about how he could be improved...

    Seriously, Phantom's ability would work well with any weapon except for smgs. Here are 2 reasons for why phantom should not have a smg:

    1- Phantom's cloak lets him start shooting with a headshot, but smgs(except for blishlok) have low damage with 1 bullet so that first headshot does not make a big differance.

    2- Smgs are useless at medium/long distance and phantom is very noticeable at close range. The cloak makes it easy to start shooting first at medium/long range.

    Just give him any weapon except for a smg. A rifle or an assault rifle can fix phantom, no need to rework his ability.

  • @TheFpsPro27 said:

    @XSheepieX said:
    Can we keep this serious please? Phantom will not be getting a shotgun any time soon.

    I'm looking for people's (hopefully well thought out) thought's and suggestions on what would make Phantom viable considering why previous changes were made.

    Maybe we need to consider where Phantom is currently lacking before thinking about how he could be improved...

    Seriously, Phantom's ability would work well with any weapon except for smgs. Here are 2 reasons for why phantom should not have a smg:

    1- Phantom's cloak lets him start shooting with a headshot, but smgs(except for blishlok) have low damage with 1 bullet so that first headshot does not make a big differance.

    2- Smgs are useless at medium/long distance and phantom is very noticeable at close range. The cloak makes it easy to start shooting first at medium/long range.

    Just give him any weapon except for a smg. A rifle or an assault rifle can fix phantom, no need to rework his ability.

    https://dirtybomb.gamepedia.com/Weapons

    crotzni, Kek-10 has more headshot DPS than M4
    blishlok is under M4 headshot DPS by 9 damage, it also has the highest Headshot damage in SMG category.

    both Kek-10 and Crotzni also has higher Body DPS than M4
    both has lower reload time than M4 and both has more ammo in magazine than M4.

    it is an de facto that Kek-10 and Crotzni is among the best weapon in the game for close/medium range engagements.

    i wouldnt ask for poopy Assault rifle if i were you...

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  • TheFpsPro27TheFpsPro27 Posts: 37
    edited September 10

    @GatoCommodore said:

    @TheFpsPro27 said:

    @XSheepieX said:
    Can we keep this serious please? Phantom will not be getting a shotgun any time soon.

    I'm looking for people's (hopefully well thought out) thought's and suggestions on what would make Phantom viable considering why previous changes were made.

    Maybe we need to consider where Phantom is currently lacking before thinking about how he could be improved...

    Seriously, Phantom's ability would work well with any weapon except for smgs. Here are 2 reasons for why phantom should not have a smg:

    1- Phantom's cloak lets him start shooting with a headshot, but smgs(except for blishlok) have low damage with 1 bullet so that first headshot does not make a big differance.

    2- Smgs are useless at medium/long distance and phantom is very noticeable at close range. The cloak makes it easy to start shooting first at medium/long range.

    Just give him any weapon except for a smg. A rifle or an assault rifle can fix phantom, no need to rework his ability.

    https://dirtybomb.gamepedia.com/Weapons

    crotzni, Kek-10 has more headshot DPS than M4
    blishlok is under M4 headshot DPS by 9 damage, it also has the highest Headshot damage in SMG category.

    both Kek-10 and Crotzni also has higher Body DPS than M4
    both has lower reload time than M4 and both has more ammo in magazine than M4.

    it is an de facto that Kek-10 and Crotzni is among the best weapon in the game for close/medium range engagements.

    i wouldnt ask for poopy Assault rifle if i were you...

    Do not only compare DPS. At long range smgs can headshot only with first bullet, and Phantom's cloak is better for shooting at long range. M4 might be worse than a smg for phantom, but BR-16 Dreiss-AR and Stark-AR (especially Stark-AR) would work better with phantom. What phantom needs is a long range weapon.

  • I think something like that would help Phantom, but realistically, do you think it would happen?

    There must have been a lot of work up into the loadouts for Phantom so it is unlikely that he would be given different guns. It would be just too much of a change. Though he probably would have been more useful with a longer range rifle.

    I honestly don't think this will happen though. Additionally, giving him a longer range weapon wouldn't work with the vicinity of Phantom's EMP and also the fact that he is partially geared towards melee.

    I feel like he just needs a way to maximise the advantage he has, which is the ability to attack from unexpected angles and deal damage without taking return fire. Because at the moment he can't do enough damage to be able to effectively take advantage of his ability and he can't use it frequently enough or effectively enough to be able to really make an impact.

  • @TheFpsPro27 said:

    @GatoCommodore said:

    @TheFpsPro27 said:

    @XSheepieX said:
    Can we keep this serious please? Phantom will not be getting a shotgun any time soon.

    I'm looking for people's (hopefully well thought out) thought's and suggestions on what would make Phantom viable considering why previous changes were made.

    Maybe we need to consider where Phantom is currently lacking before thinking about how he could be improved...

    Seriously, Phantom's ability would work well with any weapon except for smgs. Here are 2 reasons for why phantom should not have a smg:

    1- Phantom's cloak lets him start shooting with a headshot, but smgs(except for blishlok) have low damage with 1 bullet so that first headshot does not make a big differance.

    2- Smgs are useless at medium/long distance and phantom is very noticeable at close range. The cloak makes it easy to start shooting first at medium/long range.

    Just give him any weapon except for a smg. A rifle or an assault rifle can fix phantom, no need to rework his ability.

    https://dirtybomb.gamepedia.com/Weapons

    crotzni, Kek-10 has more headshot DPS than M4
    blishlok is under M4 headshot DPS by 9 damage, it also has the highest Headshot damage in SMG category.

    both Kek-10 and Crotzni also has higher Body DPS than M4
    both has lower reload time than M4 and both has more ammo in magazine than M4.

    it is an de facto that Kek-10 and Crotzni is among the best weapon in the game for close/medium range engagements.

    i wouldnt ask for poopy Assault rifle if i were you...

    Do not only compare DPS. At long range smgs can headshot only with first bullet, and Phantom's cloak is better for shooting at long range. M4 might be worse than a smg for phantom, but BR-16 Dreiss-AR and Stark-AR (especially Stark-AR) would work better with phantom. What phantom needs is a long range weapon.

    phantom initially holds Fel-IX sniper rifle

    but the devs realized that hes very OP with that.
    fighting a good vasilli is annoying, Fighting something that harass then disappear after he one shot you is not even remotely fun to play against.

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  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 46
    edited September 11

    Yeah... I though I mean it is a thing in planetside. It could probably work if they tried to implement it that way.

    It has been established now that Phantom is effective at closer ranges especially considering his cooldown is long enough that you really need to make the most of each use of it meaning you generally want to be as close as possible.

    Edit:

    What actually is Phantom's role? I would assume he's some sort of harasser assassin, taking out high priority targets and putting pressure on the enemy, flanking, but he doesn't seem to do either exceptionally well (or just well for that matter).

    Post edited by XSheepieX on
  • @XSheepieX said:
    Yeah... I though I mean it is a thing in planetside. It could probably work if they tried to implement it that way.

    It has been established now that Phantom is effective at closer ranges especially considering his cooldown is long enough that you really need to make the most of each use of it meaning you generally want to be as close as possible.

    Edit:

    What actually is Phantom's role? I would assume he's some sort of harasser assassin, taking out high priority targets and putting pressure on the enemy, flanking, but he doesn't seem to do either exceptionally well (or just well for that matter).

    phantom is hybrid recon-assault

    he can wipe a camp using chaos alone. In the heat of battle, 7 sec of cooldown is pretty fast.

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  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 46
    edited September 11

    @GatoCommodore See i get where you're coming from, but i just can't see Phantom as even close to an assault. He just doesn't have the skills imo. If a Phantom is on the front line, something is wrong.

    I wouldn't say he can single handedly wipe, maybe he can help.

    And though 7 seconds is kinda short, it isn't that short considering it is very unforgiving if you want to play as more of a harasser. Also considering his ability doesn't actually negatively effect other players as such and it is the only advantage Phantom can give himself, it seems a tad too long imo.

    I honestly just wish Phantom had some additional ability or way to be better at killing. Against low level players he seems fine, but when you play in PUGs or in the DBN servers or whatever it is apparent that though he isn't completely terrible, he is't in the same league as other mercs. He has no tricks up his sleeves.

  • Anyone wanna bet Phantom will be balanced after SD releases new mercs?
    I mean, reworking existing merc is like adding a new one and deleting the old one, at the same and not the same time.

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  • I would hope not. As it could take a while for all of the new mercs to be released.

    I feel like SD should prioritize getting all the mercs to at least a simi-viable state before releasing new ones. It could be well into next year before Phantom get's the changes he needs if that happens.

    I would really like to see SD go out of there way to fix Phantom even if it meant it took a little longer to bring out a new merc. It's be nice to see them prioritize making what we already have the best it can be before bringing out new stuff.

  • znuundznuund Posts: 130

    How did the idea of splitting the emp from his cloak to a throwable grenade turn out? I thought it would be a great idea. Something like the heartbeat sensor but as an destroyable emp-beacon like the heartbeat sensor. It would deactivate every equipment in its vicinity for a certain time until destroyed. This would make him more stealthy since not everyone gets alerted when stuff gets deactivated.

    how about a complete destruction of jav rockets if the rocket would travel through an active emp beacon? Would that be too hard?

  • @znuund said:
    How did the idea of splitting the emp from his cloak to a throwable grenade turn out? I thought it would be a great idea. Something like the heartbeat sensor but as an destroyable emp-beacon like the heartbeat sensor. It would deactivate every equipment in its vicinity for a certain time until destroyed. This would make him more stealthy since not everyone gets alerted when stuff gets deactivated.

    how about a complete destruction of jav rockets if the rocket would travel through an active emp beacon? Would that be too hard?

    Throughable EMP doesn't actually work very well from a gameplay perspective. Phantom would want to throw it on aura stations prior to uncloaking, otherwise he would have to spend his first second out of cloak tossing that thing which would ruin the feel of his character.

    So then it's throwable in cloak. Then it also sort of needs to be invisible, otherwise using it gives away phantom's position.

    So then its an invisible emp bomb that is usable while invisible. At which point it's very similar to current EMP functionality but way more awkward. Not worth.

    Also, adding a new ability to phantom breaks the symmetry of one main ability per merc.

  • XSheepieXXSheepieX Posts: 46
    edited September 12

    @woodchip said:
    Also, adding a new ability to phantom breaks the symmetry of one main ability per merc.

    I don't think this would be an issue when you consider Redeye and the Medics. I don't think it is about symmetry and more just that most mercs don't need more than one main ability.

    Though I also agree that an EMP grenade probably wouldn't be best.

  • znuundznuund Posts: 130

    @woodchip said:

    I didn't mean that it should be throwable while invisible. I mean, you can but it will break your invis like any other ability. I don't see him as a creep running around in cloak to do stuff. Invis is his ability but the EMP would be something to help the team in certain situations. Just like a heart beat sensor, but just for phantom. A small deployable which has a visual cue and can be destroyed. The fact that it is throwable would mean that he can be effective also on the distance since his kit is only effective at close range.

  • I don't like the idea of Phantom interacting with the world, during cloak.
    This very fact alone is a broken concept in PvP.

    In Stealth video games, the purest form of stealth is Ghost run, with 0 kills, interaction, traces left, and so on.

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  • It wouldn't be anything new to allow him to interact while cloaked. It's been done before in other games. Maybe not with absolute invisibility but with cloaks it has. And besides, phantom isn't invisible anyway.

    So how I see it, Phantom's cloak is kinda useless when compared to other games that use similar concepts well. In Paladins Sky has invisibility which is great. It lets you get right behind the enemy. Her weaponry isnt very high damage, but the positioning advantage you have makes up for it.

    Phantom could not play like this as there is no way he could get behind the enemy without being noticed.

    So let's look at something else. In Neotokyo 2 of the three classes use cloaks. These cloaks make you partially invisible.. ( probably not the best way to put it). Because they do not make you fully invisible, there is no restriction on shooting or interacting outside of the cloak. Though the cloaks are displaced by some of the vision types in the game though it's too complicated to go into here. Apparently halo has some sort of system where you become more visible whilst cloaked while you interact with the world, but I haven't played halo so I'm unsure on that one.

    Phantom obviously can't play like that either as he can not attack whilst cloaked.

    So what can Phantom actually do with his cloak? It seems to me that everyone tries to use the cloak in a way that it isn't designed to be used because there isn't an alternative.

  • znuundznuund Posts: 130

    he clearly isn't invisible and I don't think he should be. It makes him harder to track, because you can't see the model clearly. So the advantage could be, that he is not detected while cloak but just him. No turrets, no mines.
    Considering the heartbeat sensor I don't know but this thing should have some sort of work around. At the moment only destroying it or EMP can deal with it, right? With the phantom not being detected while cloak, this would be cool.

  • So far, the offensive way I use Phantom's cloak, is stopping by every corner, crouch, peek and move on.

    That's the closest thing to stealth, other than defensive ambushing.

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    Now Platinum Games is my best friend.

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  • I think how the EMP works now is best for Phantom. Though if you look at Dystopia. That game has a cloak mechanic that works interestingly.

    So when I make my comment on Phantom being able to interact while cloaked. It isn't like it hasn't been done in games before and to me, generally the effectiveness of the cloak (the degree to which it makes you invisible) usually determines the amount and what kind of interactions a character may make while cloaked.

    In most games I've come across, a character/class with a partial cloak is usually still able to interact with the environment either as normal or to some degree. I feel like the cloak either needs to be completely invisible or Phantom needs to have more freedom when using the cloak. I feel like the latter is more likely.

  • So I played Phantom some more, in the mentality of MGS3 camo index.
    And I gotta say, it's quite effective (crouching around corners while cloaked, at enemy frontlines).

    Perhaps we should stop thinking about TF2 spy cloak, and make more benefit of "MGS3 camo index" style gameplay. The only thing's missing is the utility.

    Of course in comp, dead teammates can look through hidden Phantom's eyes. But there needs to be something more.

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    Now Platinum Games is my best friend.

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  • That is how Phantom is supposed to be played. I already play Phantom like that and even though he is much more effective, he is still slightly lacking in those situations where you can see an enemy and you have to chose between trying to stop them from doing the side obj by dealing a little bit of damage but completely giving away your position, or letting them get the obj and waiting to flank the rest of their team.

    Situations like that when you wish you had a different merc are precisely why i suggested throwing knives as it would fix the whole "Phantom should play like a spy yet he isn't even completely invisible so you can't do that". Knives mean Phantom could have a utility to use while cloaked yet it would be easy to balance as you can just tweak the damage of the knives.

    Giving him a spotting ability probably wouldn't be that great considering Vasili does it better and Aimee already has a sort of... debilitation device. Redeye's spotting ability works well with his smoke. It wouldn't make much sense to me for Phantom to have a spotting ability too.

    Phantom should lurk in the shadows, strike and then go back to the shadows.

  • woodchipwoodchip Posts: 81
    edited September 22

    "Phantom should lurk in the shadows, strike and then go back to the shadows."

    He does this already. You cloak, you get close to someone, you aim at their head and then press M1. Your cloak will be up again in 3 seconds. Phantom isn't going to get a 'kill you while invisible' ability. Nor should he.

    It's not worth the effort you're putting into lobbying for this. Kills or damage from invisibility is inherently frustrating and abusive and there's just no way SD would add something like that in order to give Phantom the slight buff he needs.

    Damage from invisible is like the nuclear option. Totally inappropriate in all circumstances but especially when Phantom is a few tweaks away from balanced.

    Also, you should reconsider whether you are playing phantom 'the way he is meant to be played'. Phantom isn't weak enough that a good phantom won't go 3:1 K/D consistently in pubs. If you're not doing that then you might be trying to push phantom into a role he isn't meant for. I say this in part because you talk about the cloak not really having a role (because phantom can't consistently get free flanks, can't 1 shot people from invisibility, etc). But the cloak does give you a massive edge in initiating duels, and if you use it like that it's definitely strong.

    The perception that phantom is an impotent merc with a broken ability who can't make an impact on the game is either flat wrong or over the top hyperbole. He's about at the power level of Aimee, probably stronger at average skill levels. He's only 'useless' in the sense that he's not competitive with fragger and won't see much play in competitive. But by that standard proxy, skyhammer, and other characters are also useless. Basically, phantom is useless in the sense of solidly below average. But that is not the kind of useless you describe.

    If you think I'm nuts, try playing other mercs and try playing against good phantom players. Your performance won't change that much.

    He's a bushwhacker with cloak/emp instead of turret, and that's basically a fair trade. His problem is his combat power is roughly balanced against Bushwhacker, but he doesn't bring Bushwhacker's engi utility. So he's 'bad'. But that engi utility edge is often unimportant (multiple engis, no important engi objective), so phantom is about as good as bushwhacker sometimes, and weaker than bushwhacker other times. It's a pretty slight power level gap that only an experienced player is really going to notice.

    You're portraying him like he's a naked 110 HP merc with an SMG and a useless ability. He's not. Comparing his ability to TF2 spy might make him seem like that, but DB and TF2 mechanics are not comparable. Relative to most class based shooters, DB is defined by homogenized combat power and lower homogenized ability power: everyone has a strongish gun and every non-Javelin ability is only contingently powerful. Also, every character moves somewhat similarly--there's nothing like Spy being able to get consistent 100% flanks. Perhaps coming from TF2 is leading you to expect Phantom to play more differently and more spylike than he does. In TF2, abilitys are defining strengths. In DB, they are just an emphasis. Phantom is unusually strong at flanking, that's one of his emphasized traits, he's just not an automatic or 100% consistent flanker.

    Finally, giving Phantom 'something to do while cloaked' is dangerous design. It muddies the waters about what cloak is for. But let's be real we're not going to successfully have this discussion.

    Post edited by woodchip on
  • "Phantom should lurk in the shadows, strike and then go back to the shadows."

    I never said he didn't play like that.

    Phantom isn't invisible, nor should he/does he play like he is. Phantom's cloak is a cloak and that is how cloaks play in many other games. I've given examples. I am a good Phantom, I constantly do very well with him as i play him almost exclusively. However it is clearly apparent that if i switch to another recon, I will perform much better generally, even considering I have less than 1/18 of the hours I have with Phantom on all of the other recons combined.

    You're missing the point anyway. I'm not talking about pubs anyone can stomp in pubs. It means nothing. It is generally accepted that Phantom is the least useful merc in the game. As whereas I may be exaggerating how bad he is, my point still stands and it still is a big difference when you you've played long enough that you want to start playing with people your own skill level. It becomes increasingly apparent that playing Phantom is like playing with a disadvantage the better your opponents get. This isn't that your opponents are better than you, but rather there is a cutoff point where Phantom just gets less and less useful as your opponents get better regardless of how good you are at him. The better you get at the game, the less useful Phantom will be to you except for in games with players below the cutoff point.

    So sure he isn't useless, but that's not what i'm getting at.

    Also I have never thought that Phantom should play like a spy. If you look at the Dystopia video, that is more along the lines of how i see him play.

    However, it doesn't matter. He either needs to be actually invisible and actually difficult to detect (at high level) or he needs to not be completely unable to do anything while cloaked as his cloak isn't supposed to be used like that. Though i doubt they will make him completely invisible.

    The problem is that Phantom is a flanker, but the flank isn't easy to get (as in getting to the place you want to be to flank isn't actually always possible). I'm talking about against higher skill level players. Against players who know how to play, and are checking corners when they hear you, you are forced to play Phantom more as a harasser, getting a few shots off before quickly retreating and cloaking and getting opportunity flanks when your team sets you up. It just isn't worth picking Phantom to do this. It is just better to pick another merc with better firepower or more utility.

    The fact that all Phantom can do with his cloak is try to re-position just makes it far too hard to use when you can be heard and when the enemy is actively looking for you, and against a team with good medics, you end up just not being able to output enough damage to make enough of an impact. The time it takes for the enemy to react just gets less and less as people get better until it kinda just ends up making Phantom too much of a pain to play. You can flank with any merc. You don't need Phantom to do it. And even if you do flank with Phantom, once they know you are there being Phantom doesn't help in any way.

    If you have read how i suggested it be implemented, you'll know that it would improve counterplay and compliment the only viable playstyle for Phantom at higher skill levels imo.

    If you look at the above video, you can see that after firing a shot or attacking, the cloak is almost immediately turned back on allowing the player to , there and then , re-position and attack from a different angle. What i'm suggesting is very similar to that, except it is much easier to balance and it doesn't conflict with Phantom's ability coldown on the cloak.
    If Phantom was able to play like that, it might actually fix him.

  • Most everything you are talking about can be addressed by buffing his invisibility or cloak CD, as I've already suggested.

    What you've suggested is throwing knives you can use while invisible. I think. Your English is very hard to read.

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