Javelin feedback by Eox : Cheesy, not OP.

EoxEox FrancePosts: 2,930Moderator
edited September 28 in Mercenary Discussion

I already did some kind of big feedback like that back in the times where Phantom got his release. As Javelin is effectively being an extremely controversial merc, I feel the need to do another one.

After testing Javelin for three or four whole matches, I can definitely agree with one thing : she's sure one hell of a cheesy version of Fragger. This fire support is definitely way less axed on objective destruction as she will need at least three rockets to get rid of an EV, which is effectively equal to 60 seconds. It's a bit less than skyhammer but it's not an instant "EV kill" button, so I consider not a good choice for dealing with an EV whatsoever. She can still do the job fairly well for those small 500 hp generators secondary objectives (especially if paired with Nader), but that's about it. However, if there's one thing Javelin exceeds at, it's at flushing players. Like Fragger, Javelin is able to do an incredible amount of radial damage in a rather good radius, potentially taking down a whole push in a single rocket. There's two major difference with Fragger : the first is that the cooldown is almost twice as long (but still mildly enough to ensure almost one per spawnwave), and the second is that it's cheesy as @$!#.

Javelin's rocket launcher is basically Fragger's grenade without any proper preparation or skill required. You aim it, you fire, it explodes on a surface and do a massacre. The rocket has a wind up time of 1s, which is usually 1.5-2 less seconds that you need to fire the thing compared to the Frag Grenade. The rocket also effectively deals more damage than a Frag Grenade, with 200 hp damage per explosion, but also 200 additional damage if the rocket directly hits a target, making instant gibs effectively much more common with the rocket launcher than with the Frag Grenade. It also features a guided mode that will help the slightly more skilled people to get multikills on an aura station around a corner, increasing further the unpredictability of that ability. Unpredictability : this is the main reason why Javelin is so annoying to fight against. There's no sound queue or visual indication that the rocket is coming. Where a Fragger must cook a nade for between 2 and 3 seconds, making it fairly obvious, Javelin can pop her rocket out in a single second, mid fight, with also a better way to hit enemies around walls and cover. Basically, what Fragger does, Javelin does it much easier. Also expect the rocket launcher to effectively gets much more enemy kills than any other fire support abilities in this game. Yes, even Kira's space mop that tends to be usually so good at mowing people down.

She also doesn't require any action from the player to give ammo to her teammates, and effectively never runs out of ammo. Basically, you can effectively expect Javelin to replace most fire supports if there's no EV in the game. There's of course some kind of cooldown going on after giving some quantity of ammo, but as far as I saw it was barely hindering. The cooldown felt fast enough so I and my team did not end up with no ammo at all at the worst moment. Basically, I was able to sustain the team extremely efficiently with ammunition without even bothering pushing a single button or paying attention to my teammates. Basically, I just get free xp just by staying near my allies. I still need a bit more playtesting about that though.

However after playtesting her, I must admit that it's not that bad (though it still is). 1s wind up is of course not long enough to me, but it was usually enough to die if I dared to show up without proper positionning. It's however another issue if you fight a Javelin that just wants to cheese a duel : 1s to kill a 120 hp merc is possible, don't get me wrong. But we're not all killing machines able to instantly lock down on someone's head and stay on it. Hence, cheesing a duel by poping your rocket launcher just in front of someone is extremely common and usually works a lot (though the guy effectively wastes a rocket for a single enemy). If a Javelin ever finds you un the open and really decides that you must eat her rocket, chances are that you will go back to spawn while crying like a baby. That 1s cooldown can also be very easly compensated just by hiding behind a random obstacle and poping out of cover at the right last moment.

Her new weapons mostly feel fine. I read bad stuff about the SHAR-C yesterday, I don't know why. It feels a bit like a blishlok, but with more range and less bloom of course. I do feel like this weapon was efficient. I almost felt like headshots had a superior damage multiplier but I am not sure at all. I felt many time like I was dealing much more damage than I should usually do.

The Axe is a weapon of mass destruction ! I am just half kidding when I say that. For some reason scoring kills with it feels incredibly easy. That weapon definitely has a bigger range than expected. Maybe it shouldn't be able to be swung that fast ? Anyway, it's a fun and effective melee weapon though I really wonder what its whole stats are.

I would also highly criticize the way SD advertised the ways to counter Javelin in the merc role call, because if anything Turtle and Phantom are fairly poor counters to begin with. Turtle will only be able to block a rocket if it effectively blocks a whole corridoor, else you can perfectly expect a curved rocket right behind it, or just a regular rocket fired at the side. I also perfectly expect a rocket to down a shield very quickly. Phantom ? He just blocks the guided mode which is only half an issue. It's simple, if there's a Phantom in the enemy team, just don't use guided mode. You can perfectly play a whole match with regular mode anyway. Really guys, advertising those two as counters weren'ta good idea at all, since they don't even really do the job.

To conclude, a nerf is required (though not a gigantic one) not only because she feel cheesy as heck, but aslo because she feels like she effectively outshines any other fire support when no EV is involved. I am afraid that the fact that she's effectively able to give ammo incredibly effortlessly with a superior killing potential would basically mean the end of other fire supports if there's main objective to shut down. Because she's not as objective focused than other fire supports she needs to be better at killing people, but right now it's probably too efficient due to her frustratingly high unpredictability. This is why I suggest the following changes so far :

  • Increase wind up time from 1.0s to 1.5s. Can be increased or decreased if further tweaking is required. This will effectively make cheesy Javelins less painful to fight against in duels for more average player.
  • Add a fairly loud sound cue when the rocket is winding up starting exactly after 0.3s of wind up time (effectively gives 1.2s to hide if you did not see Javelin at first). Paired with the additional wind up time, it'll make rockets much less frustratingly unpredictable.

Let's keep the amount of damage for now. It's high, but it gives a rocket a quite needed strong impact in the game as the Rocket Launcher isn't as efficient on the EV.

I am also very worried about seeing other fire supports disappearing from non EV based maps since Javelin is so effective at giving ammo without efforts and usually frags much easier than them. Enventually, you might want to make it so the Javelin player has to manually give ammo. Maybe make it an ammo pulse that works a bit like Phoenix's healing pulse. Anyway, I don't think Javelin should be a walking ammo station with no need to pay attention to any players around, or at least she shouldn't do the job that efficiently. We need a good reason to pick something else than Javelin for non EV maps.

I think that's about all I have to say. I hope this thread was as insightful as possible for most users around. Don't hesitate about giving your opinion about all that stuff. That feedback is really needed for SD.

AFTER NERF EDIT :

It's now about time to do a small after-nerf feedback.

Did the changes helped ? Yeah for sure. But javelin still remains the most efficient Fire Support when you aren't facing an EV in my honest opinion. The rocket launcher still remains as easy to use as ever. Cheesing is still a thing. Also, by the time you hear the sound cue, it's usually too late to attempt to escape, at it does not happen at the start of the wind up, but slightly after. The rocket is basically still too quick to pop out. I'm sure Javelin is going to be the number one secondary DPS in competitions right now, due to her being able to wipe down one to three enemies each spawnwaves.

I still think a small increase of the wind up time could be made. But not as big as I used to suggest. 0.3 more windup time would be the perfect final tweak in my honest opinion.

Post edited by Eox on
"Explosions are red.
Skyhammer drops ammo.
You play bad
And you have ugly camo."
- Broneholm, 2017.

Comments

  • Javelin is absolutely the most asinine character thus far created. She combines the best of support, AOE, and attacker. Why play anything else? A level 11 player finished a stopwatch match last night with a 95-15 score. Asinine.

  • arharr3arharr3 Posts: 24

    I think shes fine. Her launcher could use a warning sound when about to be fired or a laser attachment so the enemy team knows they are about to get a rocket in their face.
    The axe stats are 50/85 as far as I know (without chopper).

  • BlargzBlargz Posts: 16

    @Eox said:
    She also doesn't require any action from the player to give ammo to her teammates (...)

    It's too difficult for most of my fire supports to press "e" so I kinda like it.

    (...) and effectively never runs out of ammo. There's of course some kind of cooldown going on after giving some quantity of ammo, but as far as I saw it was barely hindering.

    This 30 sec ammo cooldown only affects You. It essentialy gives You one mag every 30s which is laughable. I'm out of bullets 90% of the time with her. Teammates don't trigger it, and can get ammo 24/7.

    Mostly agree with the rest.

  • -BigRed-BigRed Posts: 19

    I mean the arm time needs to go up for sure. Maybe 2 seconds? Also the rocket should come back a little slower. The instant ammo thing is odd, its like a phoenix pulse without having to pulse. I think its fine though because everyone has to come to her to get it. Maybe decrease the effective radius of the ammo resupply.

  • -BigRed-BigRed Posts: 19

    I think the instagib is fine if you have to wait 30 seconds to use it.

  • I think that currently I hate her because everyone abuses her. When you join a match there are rockets everywhere. I had matches with even 6 Javelins on the opposing team! But I still think that she needs to be nerfed.
    -2 second delay before every shot
    -35 second cooldown
    -This warning sound
    -And sth like phoenix pulse instead of the walking ammo station
    This is my opinion and I'm hoping for some feedback on this. ;)

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 3,363

    need laser pointer like how other fire supports have

    should have this sound when launched

    A Hat In Time: Picture Perfect!                                                                  
  • neverplayseriouneverplayseriou Posts: 1,244

    -Low skill version of fragger that for some reason can 1 hit kill instagib even though fragger can't.

    -The rpg is pretty much an op version of a panic molotov, people just start jumping around like idiots in cqc and obliterate you with 1 shot.

    -Rpg needs a longer cd.
    -Rpg needs more damage against an ev.
    -Rpg shouldn't be able to be fired whilst jumping or while being hit (one of the two).
    -Rpg should not have the ability to instagib people (the idiot that thought that was a good idea must've never played against people that know what a spawn timer and spawn nading is...).
    -Rpg needs a longer charge time/audio cue.

  • Dys[fn]alDys[fn]al Posts: 61

    it could do with reduced damage if it got an EV damage mult

  • PtilouiPtiloui Posts: 174

    There is another thing that is quite game breaking regarding to engi : it is now way more efficient to rocket generators than planting c4. I mean, we already could do this with Nader but spamming nades on this is a huge tradeoff (no nades to kill people). With Jav, one rocket, half a mag and it's done in under 4 seconds (on bridge this is super op for the barrier gen).

    And talking about her ammo chest : Remove the automatic cooldown, make it a manual ability. While it's on cooldown, the passive ammo giving to teammates is disabled. Jav needs ammo ? Call another fire support, find ammo crate (and isolate yourself from the battlefield) or use your own ability but your teammates won't get ammo.
    And disable the passive ability too when Jav is downed.

  • EoxEox FrancePosts: 2,930Moderator
    edited August 28

    @Ptiloui said:
    There is another thing that is quite game breaking regarding to engi : it is now way more efficient to rocket generators than planting c4. I mean, we already could do this with Nader but spamming nades on this is a huge tradeoff (no nades to kill people). With Jav, one rocket, half a mag and it's done in under 4 seconds (on bridge this is super op for the barrier gen).

    I wonder if you actually were in one of my games now, because I do this a lot. :p

    Indeed, she can wreck secondary objective with an obscene ease, but to be honest so does Stoker since his lastest molotov damage buff (tho a little less efficient since flames can be wiped down and it takes a bit more time). So she's not the only merc that can flip the crap out of a secondary obj like that. On some maps like trainyard, Arty, Kira and Skyhammer can do the same thing as well.

    I don't think this is that much an issue for now, but I would for sure monitor that.

    "Explosions are red.
    Skyhammer drops ammo.
    You play bad
    And you have ugly camo."
    - Broneholm, 2017.
  • kingbukikingbuki Posts: 7

    She's maybe a bit too much polyvalent compared to the other fire support and i agree with
    -better sound when rocket pre-fired / fired
    -higher cooldown on the ability
    -ammo working like phoenix

    that would be already a nice tone down

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 3,363
    edited August 29

    @Eox said:

    @Ptiloui said:
    There is another thing that is quite game breaking regarding to engi : it is now way more efficient to rocket generators than planting c4. I mean, we already could do this with Nader but spamming nades on this is a huge tradeoff (no nades to kill people). With Jav, one rocket, half a mag and it's done in under 4 seconds (on bridge this is super op for the barrier gen).

    I wonder if you actually were in one of my games now, because I do this a lot. :p

    Indeed, she can wreck secondary objective with an obscene ease, but to be honest so does Stoker since his lastest molotov damage buff (tho a little less efficient since flames can be wiped down and it takes a bit more time). So she's not the only merc that can flip the crap out of a secondary obj like that. On some maps like trainyard, Arty, Kira and Skyhammer can do the same thing as well.

    I don't think this is that much an issue for now, but I would for sure monitor that.

    stoker needs to shoot the generator longer

    but yea, arty, kira and skydad are pretty much staple on opening generator routes in the open top maps.

    A Hat In Time: Picture Perfect!                                                                  
  • PtilouiPtiloui Posts: 174

    @GatoCommodore said:

    @Eox said:

    @Ptiloui said:
    There is another thing that is quite game breaking regarding to engi : it is now way more efficient to rocket generators than planting c4. I mean, we already could do this with Nader but spamming nades on this is a huge tradeoff (no nades to kill people). With Jav, one rocket, half a mag and it's done in under 4 seconds (on bridge this is super op for the barrier gen).

    I wonder if you actually were in one of my games now, because I do this a lot. :p

    Indeed, she can wreck secondary objective with an obscene ease, but to be honest so does Stoker since his lastest molotov damage buff (tho a little less efficient since flames can be wiped down and it takes a bit more time). So she's not the only merc that can flip the crap out of a secondary obj like that. On some maps like trainyard, Arty, Kira and Skyhammer can do the same thing as well.

    I don't think this is that much an issue for now, but I would for sure monitor that.

    stoker needs to shoot the generator longer

    but yea, arty, kira and skydad are pretty much staple on opening generator routes in the open top maps.

    I won't deny is use this this tactic too, especially on underground to open the right door and on bridge obviously :smiley:

    But unlike other fire supports, Jav can use this tactic in every situation and indoor maps. It's okay that tactics and gameplay change when a new merc come out, but losing a complete part of strategy/gameplay is another thing.

  • EoxEox FrancePosts: 2,930Moderator

    It's now about time to do a small after-nerf feedback.

    Did the changes helped ? Yeah for sure. But javelin still remains the most efficient Fire Support when you aren't facing an EV in my honest opinion. The rocket launcher still remains as easy to use as ever. Cheesing is still a thing. Also, by the time you hear the sound cue, it's usually too late to attempt to escape, at it does not happen at the start of the wind up, but slightly after. The rocket is basically still too quick to pop out. I'm sure Javelin is going to be the number one secondary DPS in competitions right now, due to her being able to wipe down one to three enemies each spawnwaves.

    I still think a small increase of the wind up time could be made. But not as big as I used to suggest. 0.3 more windup time would be the perfect final tweak in my honest opinion.

    "Explosions are red.
    Skyhammer drops ammo.
    You play bad
    And you have ugly camo."
    - Broneholm, 2017.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,693

    To be honest making her harder to play from the player perspective will just ruin her as a merc. This update improved a lot of the counter play that she has, and made it easier for her to counter. I think it's done pretty well, at this point people complaining just seems to be whining.

    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • GuziolGuziol Posts: 259

    Since patch i killed a decent amount of javelins because i knew the timing of the rocket leaving the launcher so i can shoot it. Only annoying things are peekaboo around the corner jump-rocket shots that you can do very little about, ( Sometimes you can maybe survive if you hear it and pray to god you covered enough distance with running away ) but fragger can do basically the same and it's fine.

  • @Guziol said:
    Since patch i killed a decent amount of javelins because i knew the timing of the rocket leaving the launcher so i can shoot it. Only annoying things are peekaboo around the corner jump-rocket shots that you can do very little about, ( Sometimes you can maybe survive if you hear it and pray to god you covered enough distance with running away ) but fragger can do basically the same and it's fine.

    god i hate peek-a-boo with a good headset
    they dont even need to see you to know youre coming

    A Hat In Time: Picture Perfect!                                                                  
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