will proxy mine FF bug become a feature instead of a bug?

i mean, it does teach kiddies to put mines smarter

and not throwing it everywhere (they even throw it in spawn ffs)

i really support SD decision if they decide to made this a feature instead of a bug

Merchant Of Mirrors                                                                  

Comments

  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,157

    its a feature. in ranked.

    on pubs it would cause too much trolling

    First!

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  • LifeupOmegaLifeupOmega Posts: 1,951

    I hope it stays. It could even come with negative exp for the Proxy if their own team dies to it. Really teach them careful placement.

    You don't need to learn how to aim in Dirty Bomb if you just use Bursts, Shotguns or Sniper Rifles.
  • BlackboltLWBlackboltLW Posts: 567

    I hope this stays

    Seriously sometimes there's a bug that really fun to keep as gameplay variety and this is one of them

    They should keep it like that on pubs

  • GuziolGuziol Posts: 179

    I also like this "change" a lot. Hope it stays that way.

  • ThunderZsoltThunderZsolt Posts: 289

    Because it survived a few bugfix patches, I'd say it will stay, and I'm happy with it.

    @LifeupOmega the Proxy doesn't get negative XP. When you shoot an enemy mine, it becomes "yours", in the sense that it damages only you and the enemy team, so you can kill any enemy player, not just the proxy.
    You get the full kill credit as well.

    When you detonate a mine by stepping on it, the proxy gets the kill, and if she is nearby, gets killed and negative XP for suicide (the mine stays her).

    When you shoot the mine and get killed by it that way, the proxy doesn't get any XP, and you get negative XP for suicide (you "hijack" the mine).

    This also means that you can safely shoot mines near teammates, they won't get damaged (unless it is ranked ofc) I like this part even more than the previous one (getting a triple kill with an enemy mine is priceless tho).

  • Cgz27Cgz27 Posts: 73
    edited July 27

    My cousin plays the style where he often shoots the mine after throwing it to good effect and i felt rly bad for him after this change. Especially because other times he would place it on a fallen body to bait and deter revives or a health station to force people away. kinda seems unfair proxy is now less versatile in pubs. At least, the change where the person who shoots grts the kill is nice but i feel it should still kill their teammates as well or at least if they are downed ( or decreases damage maybe 50% or still able to destroy deployables at the very least)

  • GatoCommodoreGatoCommodore Posts: 3,156

    @Cgz27 said:
    My cousin plays the style where he often shoots the mine after throwing it to good effect and i felt rly bad for him after this change. Especially because other times he would place it on a fallen body to bait and deter revives or a health station to force people away. kinda seems unfair proxy is now less versatile in pubs. At least, the change where the person who shoots grts the kill is nice but i feel it should still kill their teammates as well or at least if they are downed ( or decreases damage maybe 50% or still able to destroy deployables at the very least)

    proxy throw and shoot is still effective, its just this change makes proxy putting her mines in enemies lanes and not friendly area because enemies can shoot the mine and kill friendlies.

    Merchant Of Mirrors                                                                  
  • ThunderZsoltThunderZsolt Posts: 289

    @Cgz27 said:
    My cousin plays the style where he often shoots the mine after throwing it to good effect and i felt rly bad for him after this change. Especially because other times he would place it on a fallen body to bait and deter revives or a health station to force people away. kinda seems unfair proxy is now less versatile in pubs. At least, the change where the person who shoots grts the kill is nice but i feel it should still kill their teammates as well or at least if they are downed ( or decreases damage maybe 50% or still able to destroy deployables at the very least)

    You do realize that if you shoot your own mine, then nothing changed, right?

    Now you can't mindlessly run in circles and do nothing but spam mines, because it has a counterplay, and that is a great thing imo.

    For example in the case of putting the mines on health stations it was typically reward for zero effort. If you can destroy a health station, do it, and place your mine near a corner so the enemies might walk into it. If you choose to put it on the health station and leave it be, the enemies can notice and destroy the mine without damaging the station. You take the risk (of not doing anything if noticed) for the possible reward of not just destroying the health station, but also getting one or more kill in the process. They are still forced away from the health station - you just can't destroy it from the front with a kamikaze run if they shoot the mine before you can detonate it.

    Same for putting it under fallen enemies - you could easily finish off the enemy instead of putting a mine on them, and place your mine in a better spot, why not do that? Try to guess where the medic will come from, and mine the way if you want to lay a trap. If the medic notices the mine, it is fair that he can disable it without finishing off his teammate.

  • Cgz27Cgz27 Posts: 73
    edited July 28

    Good arguments.
    Of course the tactic of shooting it to blow people up stays the same for the player.

    The point (which i did not make blatantly clear of course, my apologies) was more that she loses at least two styles of play and it is arguably a huge nerf (this excludes ranked, of course where she can be already be weaker than the other engies).

    @ThunderZsolt said:
    Now you can't mindlessly run in circles and do nothing but spam mines, because it has a counterplay, and that is a great thing imo.

    Yee, counterplay is awesome, which is why I also suggested a decreased damage mechanic rather than all of the proxy's damage being straight up nullified. And of course, she shouldn't be allowed to just throw it in the middle of say Underground first objective and have only her teammates not worry about getting blown the flip up haha. And that's assuming she didnt have to use her mines to actually get inside or also make it safe to plant it in the first place

    For example in the case of putting the mines on health stations it was typically reward for zero effort.

    Placing the mine on a health station takes "zero effort"? Not as true when you consider the time it takes to reach the area and the risk you take of being spotted before AND after the mine is placed, which I can see you already mentioned but the risk is still in fact there. Throwing the mine takes time as well.

    If you can destroy a health station, do it, and place your mine near a corner so the enemies might walk into it. If you choose to put it on the health station and leave it be, the enemies can notice and destroy the mine without damaging the station. You take the risk (of not doing anything if noticed) for the possible reward of not just destroying the health station, but also getting one or more kill in the process.

    It's easy to say that but, its more about losing an alternative tactic. What are the other ways you can destroy it? Shooting it? That takes at least 2 more seconds to do and you are most likely dead by that point.
    Placing the mine near a corner? Of course you understand not every corner is the same depending on the area in question, and what if getting to that corner requires you to sacrifice your position? Again, Proxy is wasting more time and increasing her risk.

    They are still forced away from the health station - you just can't destroy it from the front with a kamikaze run if they shoot the mine before you can detonate it.

    It should be remembered that since any teammate can shoot the mine to remove all of the enemy Proxy damage, they don't have to be the ones near the health station in the first place, therefore, there is a chance they won't be forced away, and if there's a group, only the person who noticed will be forced away I suppose but the people who aren't shooting the mine will probably have killed the Proxy by then. With Proxy's short range and HP it does look bad that she loses out on these things.

    Same for putting it under fallen enemies - you could easily finish off the enemy instead of putting a mine on them, and place your mine in a better spot, why not do that? Try to guess where the medic will come from, and mine the way if you want to lay a trap. If the medic notices the mine, it is fair that he can disable it without finishing off his teammate.

    Not quite the same as the mine can be thrown quite far and is less noticeable/time-consuming than shooting or knifing to finish.
    Anyway who said the Proxy intended to finish? Placing the mine on the downed player can deter medics, force the downed to 'k', or if the medic doesn't pay attention to surroundings, land a kill.
    Also, if you are running into a group and wanna finish someone, the medic is probably already be nearby and that doesn't really give you time to place the mine in a better spot or place traps. If they had that much time, there would obviously be no need to place it on the body. The mines don't have super short cooldowns either, she is already sacrificing her mine to force the enemy away from the station or downed enemy, she is probably not going to get out of that alive, and she will lose everything with no reward.

    ~~~~

    Overall, I just wanted to point out that the playstyle isn't as low risk as people think.
    But I guess from now on she is just gonna be the engi that runs fast or dies fast and forces people to check corners for less than a second, if she can even get to those corners at least.

    She had the option in normals to sacrifice herself to disrupt a defensive camp for her team to push through even from the front, at the cost of her life.
    Now she dies for nothing, and is instead forced to wait for her team before she can do anything, which I guess can be a good thing but forces her into one playstyle which is let your team distract and die so you can move up and hopefully your team distracted well enough. She becomes a lot more team dependant. She has lost a lot more in normal play than people assume.

    Ps:
    I could actually care less as I don't main or play Proxy often and still enjoy playing her regardless. It just feels a bit unfair for some who might have had to drastically change their playstyle while every other merc gains significantly from it. You really don't think Proxy deserves anything in return? At the very least, deployables should still somehow be affected,as she's sacrificing her own. My cousin joked about quitting cus of this haha but as I said, there are many proxy players who don't just spam mines in clusterfk'd areas and call it a day. The spammers rarely top the board and can get punished very easily by the experienced. The proxy players I feel bad for are the ones who tactically decide between different mine usages in the heat of the moment causing chaos around the map, now she only creates suspense, oh wow spooky (~ o3o)~

    Post edited by Cgz27 on
  • ThunderZsoltThunderZsolt Posts: 289

    @Cgz27 I won't quote the whole post to avoid being it too long.

    You are right about the proxy sacrificing herself, but I don't see it as a risk, but a consequence. If you can get away, that means that the enemy team can't aim.

    By "zero effort" I mean everyone can rush in and throw a mine on a health station with half a brain and 2 hands using WASD and Q keys. You don't deserve to be able to clear a health station with 3 enemies standing on top of it with your mine. There are fire support/assault abilities to do that - last time I checked, proxy was an objective specialist. (on a side note, Nader being able to do the same with martyr is stupid as well)

    You are right about placing mines under bodies though, that is an apropriate usage of the ability. Still, you can shoot the mine yourself before the enemies - you have the advantage because you know that you will place a mine, they have to react.

    All in all, in my opinion letting proxy using her mines as an offensive tool was an oversight, and now it is fixed. It is hinted (by gameplay tips for example) that they are intended for closing flank routes, placed near objectives to slow down (or blow up unaware) enemies.
    You can use them as distraction, but then don't be surprised if you fail to achieve anything or even get your own team killed.

    When I play her, i use mines as motion sensors on strategic points where the enemies can not get around them without blowing the mines up, so I can react or warn my team.

  • Cgz27Cgz27 Posts: 73
    edited July 28

    @ThunderZsolt

    Yea, pretty much right about the aim, but there's a point where if everyone could aim, almost no one would dare play proxy anymore as she wouldn't be able to get even close to a group.
    She obviously not gonna get out of there with all her HP either haha

    But anyway yea I know ( i think? lol ), pretty much you're saying that the 'possible reward' coupled with a lack of consequence is a bit too much in comparison to other mercs. I suppose it just looks kinda like a slap in the face that it had to be a bug rather than a documented change ( or perhaps it wasn't a bug :^) dun dun dun)
    I even took a break this past month and just assumed it was a merc update haha.

    By "zero effort" I mean everyone can rush in and throw a mine on a health station with half a brain and 2 hands using WASD and Q keys. You don't deserve to be able to clear a health station with 3 enemies standing on top of it with your mine. There are fire support/assault abilities to do that - last time I checked, proxy was an objective specialist. (on a side note, Nader being able to do the same with martyr is stupid as well)

    Hey! They gotta use their mouse too!!! :wink:

    A notable situation is where a lot of average players (in normals) have the awareness to retrieve their own deployable and move when they see a mine being placed, and this becomes a useful skill to use in ranked as well. Its likely that instead of planting herself, she is able to clear the way for her team to plant instead, which technically almost means she's doing her "job".
    Also, from what I've seen generally, the station is gonna be placed indoors in a spot safe from fire supports so that forces you to let your team do the work or you to go in yourself. And if it is in a fire support area chances are its an area with long lines of sight such as chapel,dockyard and vault, and she again becomes less versatile, requiring her team to do the work first. But as you've considered I guess that's how engies perhaps should be, though Fletcher and Turtle have skills that are instantly able help their team while Bush has more HP and longer ranged guns and a deployable that hasn't been effectively nerfed in normals.
    Although, even before the bug there some wacky situations that I've seen and read that usually involved many enemies standing on a health station and everyone likely survives even fragger grenades so Proxy suffered even before. I believe SD have already addressed this and are working on more solutions but anyway. Oh and i think nader might be justified with how slow she is. and fletcher fragger and nader can't have their explosives shot at as easily as proxy's sadly

    You are right about placing mines under bodies though, that is an apropriate usage of the ability. Still, you can shoot the mine yourself before the enemies - you have the advantage because you know that you will place a mine, they have to react.

    Yea shooting the mine so that both the nearby desperate-to-revive medic and the downed enemy die is usually what I see and is definitely justified, but even if they have to react, in normals there's usually gonna be a lot more than just those two and the medic might not even have to worry about anything. Although, I do love the fact that she still causes players to react (distracting them and disrupting the flow), she is still likely to die while her mines effectively disappear.

    When I play her, i use mines as motion sensors on strategic points where the enemies can not get around them without blowing the mines up, so I can react or warn my team.

    Nice. I like it. I must say I'm more of a high action player who's constantly on the move placing mines along the way, especially behind the enemy, rather than defending haha.
    I guess I'm pretty kill (EXPLOOOSIONNNN) happy whenever I do play proxy. Of course, when I make these posts I'm referring to the Proxys that actually focus on their job as well lol

    I also slightly worry that she is just gonna become even less popular than she already has been getting too, and also deter her from being used in ranked even more by incoming players. She might even end up getting an actual buff to compensate in the future haha

    Why am I awake.

    Post edited by Cgz27 on
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