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Is Rhino considered "Balanced" ?

It feels like past the point of playing against low skill players he no longer has a place. The minigun is far too inaccurate so hitting anyone for any viable damage past maybe a few feet away from you seems impossible, you're too slow to really dodge the people pumping bullets into your because you're too slow, and there are plenty of characters that are still capable of easily dueling you in close range and destroying you.

So the point is does rhino even have a proper place in the game?
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Comments

  • MisterBadminMisterBadmin Posts: 272
    Most people will say that Rhino isn't bad, just too situational.

    In pubs, you can absolutely destroy people, even on offense, because they don't coordinate. Just one person making a callout that "Rhino is going [Location]", and your team can take him down. (I know because I callout where Rhino is roaming, and his head is such a lovely target.)

    In competitive formats, he's a joke. Coordinated teams will focus him. Rhino might get a kill or two, but if he doesn't get both medics, everyone is still alive and fighting. There's not much reason to run Rhino over Fragger.


    Rhino is a close range monster. No other weapon can rival the DPS of the minigun, so it can only really be used at close to mid range. The current meta is based around mid to long range engagements, making him even more irrelevant.

    The problem in buffing him is twofold. Buff the range on the minigun, and now he's too versatile. Give him mobility and he can then gapclose, removing the one weakness he has.


    I don't like playing Rhino. I find him too slow in a fast paced game. His playstyle doesn't encourage good duels, it encourages flanking or camping with close range, high damage weapons.
  • .

    The problem in buffing him is twofold. Buff the range on the minigun, and now he's too versatile. Give him mobility and he can then gapclose, removing the one weakness he has.

    What about removing/reducing the spread on the minigun?
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,813
    Rhino is one of those mercs that offers nothing of value to the game.

    He's annoying as hell to deal with on pubs, but is rarely if ever used in higher levels of play because of how easy he is to counter as a team.


    So, really he's just not worth fixing imo, I'd much rather we just forget he's there.
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • MisterBadminMisterBadmin Posts: 272
    .

    The problem in buffing him is twofold. Buff the range on the minigun, and now he's too versatile. Give him mobility and he can then gapclose, removing the one weakness he has.

    What about removing/reducing the spread on the minigun?

    That's what I meant by range buff. It already has usable range, it just isn't reliable past shotgun range.

    If you drop the spread on it, it becomes a really big Timik with infinite ammo and no reload. Sound balanced? If it does, please think again.
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,813
    .

    The problem in buffing him is twofold. Buff the range on the minigun, and now he's too versatile. Give him mobility and he can then gapclose, removing the one weakness he has.

    What about removing/reducing the spread on the minigun?

    That's what I meant by range buff. It already has usable range, it just isn't reliable past shotgun range.

    If you drop the spread on it, it becomes a really big Timik with infinite ammo and no reload. Sound balanced? If it does, please think again.

    It would need to become a primary weapon then, a weapon like that with infinite ammo and barely any penalty?

    Come on now
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • SaulWolfdenSaulWolfden Posts: 796
    He's incredibly niche, he's balanced well for that niche, but not much else. He dominates in closed areas where enemies can't run from him. His entire purpose is to mow people down.
  • solace_solace_ Posts: 417
    "balanced" definitely not. But OP? I don't think so. One of the easiest to counter mercs in the game.

    I really wish they would somehow make him more viable at more than just spitting distance. Perhaps decrease spread but increase damage drop off? Increase movement speed but decrease minigun damage? I dunno.
  • TheStrangerousTheStrangerous Posts: 2,173
    Ironic thing is, you're better off without using his minigun, which is the exact opposite of what he's supposed to be played.

    2 words: Fat Scout

    Dirty Bomb = Lawbreakers 2.0 Electric Boogaloo

  • NaonnaNaonna Posts: 849
    My solution - it's a start:

    Reduce maximum spread on the mini-gun, and increase its minimum spread - having less variance in the cone of fire makes it more consistent. - Boost the base damage and remove head shot multipliers for it too, please. 1 bullet doing 300 damage is a bit stupid, when you aren't really aiming said bullet.
  • OhsnapklineOhsnapkline Posts: 222
    edited July 2016
    been fat scouting like a boss on that new gallery map though
  • LifeupOmegaLifeupOmega Posts: 2,070
    Offers nothing to the game outside of a few specific spots, doesn't fit with what the game advertised: fast paced, aim reliant, incredibly dull to fight and play. Would rather see a complete overhaul to make him actually fit into the game and fit his name, unless we consider ourselves poachers, in which case his name is hilariously fitting.

    I wish we had a real assault merc but instead we got... this.
    Reminder that it's always okay to vote kick a sniper, no matter how well they're doing.
  • jooshoyesjooshoyes Posts: 347
    I was thinking about making the minigun super accurate at all ranges but then reducing the damage to maybe 8 and making it overheat quicker. They could also give a slight increase to his speed, to make him more enjoyable to play so u don't feel so slow and useless.
  • LifeupOmegaLifeupOmega Posts: 2,070
    And less enjoyable for everyone else when they get skillcannoned across the map, which can already happen anyway.
    Reminder that it's always okay to vote kick a sniper, no matter how well they're doing.
  • Maybe give him a secondary skill along the lines of a melee rush skill , allow him to quickly close the gap in 5-10m dash move incorparating melee , 25/30 second cool down.
  • NaonnaNaonna Posts: 849
    As seen in the merc video, Rhino's weakness is meant to be his limited range and mobility. Removing that may be a bit too much of a buff.
  • jooshoyesjooshoyes Posts: 347
    Id rather they increase the starting spread, but make it so the spread over time doesn't increase whilst shooting, making it more effective at suppressing enemies, and giving a reason to use ice cold.
  • NaonnaNaonna Posts: 849
    Most firefights are done at range: so unless you're on underground, that modification would make rhino even less viable on maps like dome than he already is.
  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,250
    no idea what merc can duel a rhino at close range and win. Yeah, you might be dropped by a shotgun flank, with two hits before your minigun starts firing.

    300 DPS is more than twice that of any other gun in the game. If your minigun is ready you can shred absolutely anyone up close. If you can't - you are doing it wrong.

    Rhino is fine, a situational pick, thats obviously too situational for comp, but can be a blast on pubs; and often changes the dynamic of the fight.
    First!

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  • JJMAJRJJMAJR Posts: 1,117
    Okay, list of problems:

    300 DPS doesn't mean squat when Rhino's minigun has enormous recoil.
    Decreasing that recoil would cause worse problems.
    Rhino should have abilities which could give him more of a competitive advantage.
    People are still concerned about pubs.
    Rhino's a generic high-CQ-DPS character; Heavy at least can multiclass into Medic.
    Rhino's best strategy is fat scout.

    Therefore, make Rhino able to do fat scout more easily, so that in competitive he could become a much better character to use.
  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,250
    you mean spread, not recoil. Recoil (in this game) is the amount your cursor moves around when you fire. Spread is the cone of fire of your bullets, that gets larger.

    The first ~20 minigun bullets are fairly accurate, you can mow people down with a burst to the head.
    First!

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  • EquanimityEquanimity Posts: 172
    edited July 2016
    Szakalot wrote: »
    you mean spread, not recoil. Recoil (in this game) is the amount your cursor moves around when you fire. Spread is the cone of fire of your bullets, that gets larger.

    The first ~20 minigun bullets are fairly accurate, you can mow people down with a burst to the head.

    Not to mention with well timed 'taps' you can maintain minimum spread with an insignificant decrease to DPS for reliable mid range accuracy.
  • THUNDAAATHUNDAAA Posts: 1,000
    His main problem is being way too situational

    - too dependant on medics
    - suck at far distance
    - Unable to Attack unless enemy Defenders


    But unlike unstable Thunder,

    his pros are way too huge.

    Noob Rhinos are delicious juicy 200XP + 100XP finish, but well played Rhino + Aura collaborative is just freakin hell.

    need that Fragger Stoker Nader combo to beat him.
  • PtilouiPtiloui Posts: 529
    Everybody's talking only about Underground being the only map to play him but there is a lot of spots where he can wonderfully do his defender's job, globally every close quarter spots of each maps, and every map has their own.
    Ironic thing is, you're better off without using his minigun, which is the exact opposite of what he's supposed to be played.

    This, lot of people forget about his primary weapon, which is in many situation more efficient than his minigun.

  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,250
    There are indeed a few situations where shotgun is better, like when you are pushing and need to get out of choke, or you are chasing someone down. S&W is okay sa well to use at longer ranges, Rhino can peek-fire and abuse his high HP.

    Minigun is the go-to weapon in any other scenario though.


    Bridge has a lot of rhino-friendly spots, and even on trainyard Rhino can be really hard to push off the first 1obj generator area.
    First!

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  • jooshoyesjooshoyes Posts: 347
    I can't tell you how many rhinos i have beat with stark thunder, with them shooting first, at close range. I don't jnow how, but i find it extremely ridiculous and therefore i do think the minigun should be buffed, preferably accuracy,as you would be able to take advantage of this high dps at further ranges, which would make him less dependent on an aura, as he would be more effective at range.
  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,250
    Jokder wrote: »
    I can't tell you how many rhinos i have beat with stark thunder, with them shooting first, at close range. I don't jnow how, but i find it extremely ridiculous and therefore i do think the minigun should be buffed, preferably accuracy,as you would be able to take advantage of this high dps at further ranges, which would make him less dependent on an aura, as he would be more effective at range.

    Rhino is more likely to be picked by weak players. He is easy to use, and get kills with at that lvl. So indeed, you are more likely to encounter weak Rhinos, who can be outmaneuvered even in close quarters.

    That does not mean that excellent players are not potent with Rhino. I've seen some people that indeed make any peaking in closer quarters extremely punishing.

    I think it would be okay if the burst-minigun accuracy was indeed just a bit higher, making him little less situational; but you will get a LOT of rage if a good player picks him and becomes literally unstoppable.
    First!

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  • VaasrefVaasref Posts: 70
    Just revert the jump spread on the minigun and it'll be good.

    Since the speard nerf, I had to unlearn jump-spinning.

    And it is even more frustrating when you are against pesky Hochfir or shotguns since they can jump everywhere and remain fairly accurate since the maximum spread is good enough.



    Jump-spinning gave Rhino a DB feel.

  • JJMAJRJJMAJR Posts: 1,117
    edited July 2016
    Szakalot wrote: »
    I think it would be okay if the burst-minigun accuracy was indeed just a bit higher, making him little less situational; but you will get a LOT of rage if a good player picks him and becomes literally unstoppable.

    Doesn't that happen with any kind of weapon or ability?
  • SzakalotSzakalot Posts: 3,250
    JJMAJR wrote: »
    Szakalot wrote: »
    I think it would be okay if the burst-minigun accuracy was indeed just a bit higher, making him little less situational; but you will get a LOT of rage if a good player picks him and becomes literally unstoppable.

    Doesn't that happen with any kind of weapon or ability?

    the problem here is that rhino is MUCH easier to use than most mercs at low levels. You can pick rhino if you never played a single game and camp close quarters - suddenly you have twice the hp and 2-3x the DPS of everyone else (because everyone's aim sucks).

    Buffing rhino more in this situations can be dangerous.

    I pick Rhino once in a while, and If i have a good/dedicated medic by my side, at least one person on the enemy team will rage that im playing Rhino.

    I'd imagine the rage to be much higher in low lvl servers where people have no clue how to counter, and in a straight up fight they just dont stand a chance.
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