DECEMBER 1ST HOTFIX CHANGES

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  • streetwiseSailboatstreetwiseSailboat Posts: 214
    edited December 2015
    BlackFro wrote: »
    @MissMurder
    I think it should just be a blind because being slowed in Dirty Bomb is pretty much death.

    Isn't that the point? Fragger could kill you instantly with a grenade. Thunder will just make you fear for your life before you get hosed down by the enemy.
  • BlackFro wrote: »
    @MissMurder
    I think it should just be a blind because being slowed in Dirty Bomb is pretty much death.

    Isn't that the point? Fragger could kill you instantly with a grenade. Thunder will just make you fear for your life before you get hosed down by the enemy.

    How about keep the mouse sensitivity, but make them as blind and slow as it used too. Right now, it's so hard to get close to get a kill because Thunder is slow and others even when they are blinded, still run like a maniac, and even if you can get close enough, you still have no idea how blinded/stunted they are? I got shot all the time, not very happy with those changes.
  • cornJester wrote: »
    MissMurder wrote: »
    Thanks for all the feedback already. A LOT of players were in an uproar after we initially released Thunder- mostly to the team blinding that was happening and blinding yourself as Thunder... As for the other changes I'll definitely keep reading your feedback and relaying it to the devs.

    He's just not as fun to play with the removal of the turn limiter. It's extremely hard to tell who is and isn't concussed now, which also removes some of the fun of it. Those who are blinded have their hand up but it's hard to tell with the concussive effect.

    Also concussing people seems to be of little use and is unreliable, now that it simply slows them down a bit it's just two slower people fighting each other, except you have a massive hitbox for that higher health. They can aim just fine so it really kinda doesn't help all that much.

    Fragger can outright kill you with his nades that have the same cooldown! Why are Thunder's nades being made less powerful when they don't even do damage? I have to still win a normal gunfight pretty much now.

    EDIT: You probably should just not be able to move much at all, like Rhino spinup speed if concussed but still be able to aim.

    Double Edit: It doesn't even seem to slow them down...

    Confirm, tested with my friend, he still can move freely (maybe slightly slower than usual but still).
  • CCP115CCP115 Posts: 1,426
    Thunder was too strong before the nerf, and now he's too weak, maybe try to find something inbetween.

    I'm totally ok with a movespeed penalty, even if it's a 75% penalty, but mouse sens should not be reduced at all. Make my screen sway a bit, I don't care, just don't remove mouse sens.

    CS:GO literally just makes your screen white, no slowdowns, no sens changes, yet it is still an invaluable tool. Why does this tool need to be so strong?

    And if nerfing one grenade is too hard, give him two separate damn nades, a flash with a much shorter cooldown, and a concussion/EMP.
  • bontsabontsa Posts: 1,602
    CCP115 wrote: »
    Thunder was too strong before the nerf, and now he's too weak, maybe try to find something inbetween.

    I'm totally ok with a movespeed penalty, even if it's a 75% penalty, but mouse sens should not be reduced at all. Make my screen sway a bit, I don't care, just don't remove mouse sens.

    CS:GO literally just makes your screen white, no slowdowns, no sens changes, yet it is still an invaluable tool. Why does this tool need to be so strong?

    Thing with the CS though, is that flashbang as implemented there is strong utility exactly because of the current mechanics. It hinders eyesight and hearing strongly in a game where stuff, that you must see and hear in order to react right, happens in microseconds and there is no "fallback" (like healing / ammo support), it doesn't need to do anything else to be strong.

    In DB however, there are respawns in mostly played modes, you got fallbacks like getting more ammo if you spray around to defend yourself or healing, even reviving if your push went wrong. That is why I feel its justified concussion nade does more than blind you for a short while. Or the blinding effect has to be spot on; real indicator for Thunder that the enemy IS indeed flashed (not the model goofery we got now), no hit indicators for flashed enemy so they cant just scan for enemies that way with high-clip sized weaponary, and so forth.

    Either we do have concussion effect as an added bonus for very spot-on grenade throw, which is justified to be rewarded in my opinion, or we get more refined working flash effect more suited for fast-phased, high spam-related (intelligent spam is a thing, mind you!) game. I wouldn't mind having both obviously.
    Lusting after legends? Fancy for some fiction? Craving for chronicles?
  • RobtasticRobtastic Posts: 38
    edited December 2015
    Dear Miss Murder,
    First of all I only registered because of this glorious thunder nerf.

    As active players could see, there were only a few who decided to give him a chance (me included). He was a bit underpowered before the "hotfix" mainly because of his size and his mk46 in my opinion (this gun is just rubbish but that's another thing).

    I think the conc nade was okay, but even the nade needed a little buff because it needs skill to be useful (more skill than fraggers).

    If Thunder should be the assault that he is supposed to be:
    Don't give a merc with that SIZE and that MOBILITY a grenade that can't be cooked.
    How should he run into a group with that mobility when no one is flashed cause it's totally predictable now (fraggers nade isn't that predictable at all). And that was supposed to be his purpose.

    Besides that, he only got 160hp and that's ridiculous for that easy-to-aim-at target.

    Now this merc is pretty useless (and that's really sad cause he had so much potential). I agree with most of my comrades in this post, you should fix him fast before he gets so unpopular that, even if he's fixed in far future, no one would ever give him a go anymore.
    Just fix him.

    Thank you.

    PS: if something's wrong, please excuse my english.
    Post edited by Robtastic on
  • Rest in pepperonis!! Thunder!!
  • i posted this and it got closed, so reposting:::

    So i believed changes were needed... but i was playing with thunder last night (and against some)... and using cards with explodahydron.

    it seems like without the sensitivity lowering, the concussion effect does nothing. i was able to still see and aim easily despite everything looking like im on mushrooms.

    the first few days i could throw in a concussion to breach, and then when i entered see that people were struggling to see/ jumping into walls, etc... now it seems by the time i move my fat as into the room i just concussed 3 people are shooting right at me like nothing happened

    anyone else feel like they overnerfed the nades? they feel useless now
  • Kay-Dubz wrote: »
    Ok, so I had an extended playthrough tonight. Thunder's ability is just bad now.

    When the enemy flashed my from a distance, I was flashed for maybe 1 second, and if I turned my back, it was maybe a bit less than that.

    sigh. skyhammer or arty strikes can obscure your vision/line of sight for that long... and htey can kill a bunch of people too. they should have fixed the bugs before @$!# too much with the radius/duration
  • They should make so your mouse control is inverted when concussed... (lol not really though)

    In seriousness, the ability does make it difficult to tell who is concussed when you enter a room, yes people put their arms up in the air in front of their eyes, but it can also look like they are about to throw something so it can be a bit confusing.

    Perhaps it should turn the enemy player's colour from red to something else, like purple? The colour would then dissipate back to red as the effect is wearing off.
  • KayDubzKayDubz Posts: 348
    edited December 2015
    i posted this and it got closed, so reposting:::

    So i believed changes were needed... but i was playing with thunder last night (and against some)... and using cards with explodahydron.

    it seems like without the sensitivity lowering, the concussion effect does nothing. i was able to still see and aim easily despite everything looking like im on mushrooms.

    the first few days i could throw in a concussion to breach, and then when i entered see that people were struggling to see/ jumping into walls, etc... now it seems by the time i move my fat as into the room i just concussed 3 people are shooting right at me like nothing happened

    anyone else feel like they overnerfed the nades? they feel useless now

    Agree. The problem is a few things:

    1. Without cooking, people can avoid the full effects of flash nades now.
    2. Theres no movement limiter when youre concussed now. This makes it easy to retreat.
    3. The minimap and crosshairs are still visible. Making orientation and movement even easier.

    Combine all this, and I can take a full concussion blast and still run away easily by checking my minimap.

    Plus Thunder is a tanky class. He should be able to use his ability to take on an enemy or two and come out victorious. As it stands he has a low chance killing two mercs, and a slightly higher chance killing of even one after throwing a flash bang.

    Rhino's huge health and minigun make gunning down two people in a choke point easy (especially with a health station). Nader can fire off 5 nades on a choke point and kill 2 people easily, especially if she finishes them off with a gun. Fragger of course can frag multiple people easily. And what can Thunder do? He can "concuss" people, and have them either run away easily or kill him as soon as he goes in to clear a room.
  • KayDubzKayDubz Posts: 348
    edited December 2015
    ??? Ummm...Someone just said this nerf was the worse decision ever made. huh?

    Let's not exaggerate guys. Its not that big of a deal. Thunder hasn't had as big of an effect on the game as other new mercs or ability changes have had.

    The devs work hard, let us play for free, and have been very communicative about changes. They always consider what the community thinks, and they do their best to find the best balance for mercs in the game.

    So lets be easy with the exaggerations and hyperbole.

    @MissMurder , thanks for the hard work. (this goes for all the staff as well.)
  • SpinnerzNQSpinnerzNQ Posts: 386
    edited December 2015
    And now I have no reason to play Thunder. I had almost zero problems with him before, and the reason I played was because I loved the concunades. Now I don't have any reason to not rather play Fragger.
    Ah well, I'm sure I won't even notice it after playing him for a while. And as long as others are happy, I'm happy :)
    EDIT: just realized Thunder is just gonna be an even more useless version of Redeye (who I love) now. thanks Splash Damage
  • SiloSilo Posts: 51
    Very nice hotfix, thank you Splash Damage!

    Here are the results of the last hotfix:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSyZfXTUgGo
  • SiloSilo Posts: 51
    I´m a bit concerned though. Lately my fps seems to be dropping with every patch.
    Am I the only one that has this problem?

    Got a new video card two patches ago and don´t really want to go back to potato mode :(
  • N8oN8o Posts: 1,430
    Saw nothing about the spawn-shield stunning.

    It's a good day.
    Check out my YouTube channel if you love me. I will be posting guides on how to play mercs in pub and comp settings.
    cHxK5wl.png
  • Silo wrote: »
    Very nice hotfix, thank you Splash Damage!

    Here are the results of the last hotfix:

    Beautiful.


    @Missmurder Yall messed up with this hotfix. I expect another "Hotfix" next week to reverse a lot of these changes. :/ The cooking thing was bad enough but the turn DPI being removed? You officially killed all viability of this skill in game...and this is coming from one of the most adamant Thunder defenders on these forums.

    This is almost, ALMOST on the level of Phantom knee-jerk nerfs. Please, fix this as fast as you broke it because this is just a damned joke.
  • bontsabontsa Posts: 1,602
    edited December 2015
    I saw a SD developer post in Warchest forum stating that cooking removal was something thought through and they might not be looking into changing it back.
    Smooth wrote: »
    It's mostly to make them a little simpler to use and behave a little more consistently.

    Since they can impact team-mates over a very large radius this should also help reduce the annoyance of poorly-timed throws from friendly Thunder's.

    Pop-flashes will still be possible, they just require smarter throws, rather than simple cook-timing.
    Smooth wrote: »
    I'll be looking very closely at the balance that results from this hotfix.

    I'm more likely to adjust the fuse and increase the impact of the flash or stun as an improvement if needed. A fixed fuse time allows for the impact to be more powerful as it usually gives victims a chance to react.

    Thread then goes on in addressing other issues related to this decision: map's walls are currently pretty wonky here and there, so it's tough as satan's pillow to properly bounce the flashes off surfaces to create "pop" flashes. And the fact that flashes dont even bounce properly at the current implementation. But overall conceus seems to be more competitive peeps seem to be fine with this kind of approach, as long as issues above are looked into and the fuse time will get some tinkering.

    I think too this seems ok approach, sure I love the cooking because it's something different from for example CS, but I also see it does have huge impact on higher level plays. However again, I think simpliest counterplay against cooking would be making the nade characters shout a voiceline when they pull the pin, hence creating audiocue for more aware players that there is nade being cooked nearby and they should dig a trench or gtfo.
    Lusting after legends? Fancy for some fiction? Craving for chronicles?
  • bontsabontsa Posts: 1,602
    Silo wrote: »
    Here is a summarization, that someone else made after testing out Thunder after the hotfix.

    http://postimg.org/image/o1dmnoff9

    Thanks for sharing this, and bigger thanks to whoever took their sweet time to create such data!

    I feel this summary needs much more larger publicity for developers to do their own testing work and act accordingly! Summoning @MissMurder @stayfreshshoe even though I think their inbox is just about bursting of these being uselessly spammed elsewhere. Not to higher this cause though, I could be spamming them uselessly now too just like that :D
    Lusting after legends? Fancy for some fiction? Craving for chronicles?
  • RobtasticRobtastic Posts: 38
    edited December 2015
    Yes, just share that. The devs should see that/test it by themselves.
  • i think that the range pre-patch may have been extreme.. but i dont think it needs reduced effect the farther away u go.. you are either close enough to be blinded or arent.

    as it stands it seems like unless you are right on it, even if you get 'blinded', when it only lasts 1-2 seconds its literally worthless. they are fine before u or your team can do anything. its barely an annoyance, let alone game affecting

    so at that point, if you need to basically direct hit with it why not just use fragger? his nades SHOULD affect a larger area IMO since they don't do damage! and people can still fire or spam nades blind
  • KayDubzKayDubz Posts: 348
    Silo wrote: »
    Here is a summarization, that someone else made after testing out Thunder after the hotfix.

    http://postimg.org/image/o1dmnoff9

    Perfect explanation! Devs should see that.
  • bontsabontsa Posts: 1,602
    edited December 2015
    Awesome, I like this new style of your devs, gotta credit both SplashDamage and Nexon on this one, to "disembark" amongst us players and actually answer if there is well-constructed criticsm and analyze done :) Please just don't knee-jerk to "errmahhgewd diz iz OPzzzz" anymore, this feels so much like re-act of Phantom mess. Nontheless, great that you're looking into this stuff! I at least have faith and will continue to test Thunder no matter how underwhelming he feels :>
    Lusting after legends? Fancy for some fiction? Craving for chronicles?
  • N8oN8o Posts: 1,430
    Wow, really impressed that user feed back is actually being taken into consideration.
    My faith is going up a little bit more.
    Check out my YouTube channel if you love me. I will be posting guides on how to play mercs in pub and comp settings.
    cHxK5wl.png
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    Silo wrote: »
    Here is a summarization, that someone else made after testing out Thunder after the hotfix.

    http://postimg.org/image/o1dmnoff9

    This is just right on the money. Whatever they were going for with thunder and what problems it currently has are all explained there.
  • Might be interesting to give Thunder some sort of eye protection so he can withstand his own flash radius and not be effected. (only the blinding part of the nade, not the rest) That would make the grenade a bit more useful as you'd already be in view of the enemies and aiming at them when it goes off.
  • coLecoLe Posts: 2
    edited December 2015
    His flashbang can't be cooked. That takes away so much utility. Thunder, being a rival to Fragger as another tanky DPS, shows no significant reason to play him over Fragger. I'd much rather throw a nicely cooked Fragger grenade into a mess of enemies than a flashbang with a 1.6 second fuse that the majority of players will turn away from.

    The affect on your mouse sensitivity while flashed is GONE. Even if you're FULLY blind and you're not a complete imbecile, you can shoot in the general direction of the enemy and their healthbar appears if you're on target. That makes the blinding effect NULL.

    Also, there's his model. He is too damn big. His slight increase in health vs Fragger is so insignificant because of this. What does it matter if he has 10 more health when he looks like an elephant when he moves through the map? He's a huge moving target. I die quicker as Thunder than I do as Fragger 100% of the time. An increase in health should mean I should survive longer. That's not the case.

    Great infographic: http://postimg.org/image/o1dmnoff9
    Post edited by coLe on
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