Changes to Anti-Hack Policies – Zero Tolerance

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  • mOistmOist Posts: 201
    @satisfyingCove oh come on please a program which alters the colours of a game should never be flagged as a hack EVER, i even asked the Gameforge if using said program was bannable and was told "NO" all it does is help em to actually see , how horrible right? and yet i got a ban for it , currently the anticheat has flagged people for anti-virus software , TS overlays etc , this is 100% unacceptable and the fact you are making excuses for them is sad ,it really is.
  • JBRAAJBRAA Posts: 15
    edited May 2015
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    Post edited by JBRAA on
  • watsyurdealwatsyurdeal Posts: 4,687
    I think people need to get a good look at what actual bots are, before they call hacks.

    Cause I've had that happen in game where someone would call it out, yet the K:D I saw was something I managed to do before. And my K:D is inconsistent, some days I'm awesome, other days not so much. Depends on my mindset and how well this pos PC can hold together, thankfully my new rig will be up this week so one less thing to worry about. Just need to get it down.

    But I'm glad the people who give out bans don't do what everyone else does and jumps to conclusions.

    Really really appreciate that. :)
    So hey, I have a small guide here you may like, go ahead, read it, you know you want to.


    ダーティーボムは非常に良いですが、あなたは非常に悪いです
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    mOist wrote: »
    @satisfyingCove oh come on please a program which alters the colours of a game should never be flagged as a hack EVER, i even asked the Gameforge if using said program was bannable and was told "NO" all it does is help em to actually see , how horrible right? and yet i got a ban for it , currently the anticheat has flagged people for anti-virus software , TS overlays etc , this is 100% unacceptable and the fact you are making excuses for them is sad ,it really is.

    The way I see it is that, indeed for anti-virus and other non gaming related issues a ban is unacceptable. But a program that alters the color palette of the game is an enhancment and can become an advantage.

    I know of some people who buy special screens that manage very high level of color contrasts to gain an edge in spoting the ennemy better than with any regular screen and altering the color palette of the game is altering the game as is! It might not be considered a cheat just as an overlay is, but any well conceived hack can use these methods to never touch the games code and still provide you with a wallhack and then fly under the radar.

    Get a sense of what is possible cheating wise and you'll realize that if the anti-cheat would allow such programs then it would open the gate for a number of cheats that run by applying similar techniques.

    The only other solution is an ad hoc system and that requires a constant addition of all the hacks to a flagging list and then still it's easy to change a few lines of code and not be recognizable anymore.

    So I do fully understand that an anti cheat program will set off false positives if it's expected to perform well, and regarding antivirus false positives, that can only be solved through intercompany comunication of both anti cheat and antivirus systems.
  • DeathiDeathi Posts: 434
    edited May 2015
    Just reminds me of an ATI-driver around 2000 somewhen. It had a setting to alter every single texturecolor of the palette to transparent. Obviously just a help for claustrophobic people i guess.
    And probably going on, some parkinson patient could argue he needs an aimbot, because he can't keep his aim steady.

    As bad as your situation might be @Moist , the anticheat has to protect the community, and for this every cheat will have to be banned on sight.
    But I do think you did send a medical attest, signed by a relevant authority of your country to Nexon at first, to clear your usage of this cheat? And after this you did give them the time to check if your papers were legal?
    If this is true it really comes down to a bad, bad customer support, i guess. And your complaints are indeed right. And this has to be changed. You will never be able to get totally rid of false alerts, but you will have to have people sorting them out.

    Taking it over to another program could be helping, but even in cs:go it only needs 2 servers/maps in casual-mode to be able to spec some idiot tracing people through walls. But ok, given, probably already flagged, still harrasing the community and by it getting a h*** small one.
    And when it comes to competetive play you probably won't be able to get the all rofessional cheaters by any means. Probably letting everyone use a locked-in propertery system, but...

    But to be honest, if my opinion, if at first the obvious ones will be handled, it would be a HUGE relief in this stage of beeing flooded by them.
    After this getting whatever anticheat working better and this will have to be a priority, but first getting rid of all these cheap idiots should be a top one.
  • Just a quick question for @MissMurder or @GM_Radrodo. Is using an overlay program (for art, banners for streamers, etc..), specifically Playclaw, is that something that is bannable? I know some games anti cheat systems can mistake it for as such but it is not.
  • MustangMustang EnglandPosts: 161
    edited May 2015
    lol mustang has been here since at least 2013 (gettin dem top scores even back then).... why ban him now? D;
    2012 actually :)

    I'm actually getting kicked from the game by XIGNCODE again today for "suspicious program detected" and I'm not running anything different that I've been running for the last 3 years.

    Oh FFS, and you changed the detection thingie again?

    I'm getting kicked for using the same program that I've been using for the last 8 years, well before DB was even started, can you please stop bending me over and just ban some real hackers instead?

    Nexon listen to their players? Let's see it then please because I'm fed up with this nonsense that's been dragging on for nearly 2 years now.
    GM_Radrodo wrote: »
    @Mustang I'm super nice!!
    I'm sure you are, but sadly nice doesn't cut it, Nexon need to adjust their attitude towards regular players and stop treating everyone as hackers just because they play DB with the exact same background processes and VOIP overlays that work absolutely fine with every other game I've ever played.

    I said I was worried by this new policy, and the very next time I try to play the game after it's been turned on I'm proved right.

    Surely you must have been collecting some sort of data and can at least whitelist non-hack programs.

    The last time I tried to collect some data for you on what programs need to be whitelisted I ended up banned for too many false positives or something, no-one from Nexon support would assist me in resolving the situation, and now we come to the same thing again and still nothing is whitelisted so it's happening all over again.

    Having never encountered Nexon before this collaboration with SD I was open minded and positive, sadly it feels like you're not interested in projecting a positive image of yourselves, which saddens me. I hear Amazon customer facing personnel have 2-3 coaching sessions a week on how to treat customers, out of interest how many do Nexon personnel have?
    Just a quick question for @MissMurder or @GM_Radrodo. Is using an overlay program (for art, banners for streamers, etc..), specifically Playclaw, is that something that is bannable? I know some games anti cheat systems can mistake it for as such but it is not.
    It absolutely should be allowed, bet it isn't though, Nexon need to buck up their ideas.
    Post edited by Mustang on
  • MissMurderMissMurder Posts: 1,429
    Here is a basic list of things to watch out for. http://forums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/10760/programs-that-will-get-you-flagged-banned

    @JBRAA rest assured GMs aren't going to see players who are doing very well and ban them out the gate. Investigations will occur and if they don't have the hard evidence we can't ban. Simple as that. As for xigncode - although we have all been doing our best to make sure it's doing it's job properly we still aren't ruling out other cheat programs and may very well go with another. We ultimately want the best experience for players and being strict on cheaters and hackers is something everyone on the team feels strongly about. @Mustang i'm sorry that you're having trouble and I know you had this happen to you in the past with xigncode. Those list of programs that I linked all do carry a threat of enabling some cheats though and we have to be cautious.
  • MustangMustang EnglandPosts: 161
    edited May 2015
    So are you looking at solutions and improvements, or just tough luck?
  • JBRAAJBRAA Posts: 15
    edited May 2015
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    Post edited by JBRAA on
  • NailNail Wpg, CanadaPosts: 3,192
    reminds me of a similar dismissive phrase "I'm sorry you feel that way"
    moop
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    I kinda understand the devs defensive position on this though, as there are always those actual cheaters trying to use the "I'm using a third party program that only does this and that and shouldn't be flagged". To try and force the devs hands into something more permissive.

    It's always a double edge sword. Either use something that will let all non cheating programs through but will fail to diagnose most of cheap hacks or have something that works reasonably well but pisses off a few people that think they need some extra overlay while playing.

    I say, kuddos to actually try and stop cheaters!
  • JBRAAJBRAA Posts: 15
    edited May 2015
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    Post edited by JBRAA on
  • MissMurderMissMurder Posts: 1,429
    Mustang wrote: »
    So are you looking at solutions and improvements, or just tough luck?
    Actively looking into solutions and improvements. We have people dedicated to this.
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    JBRAA wrote: »
    Check the rate they help customers in support, and develop Dirty Bomb.

    Of course the support for a game in beta will not be as important as for a game that just has been released. Dirty bomb barely hit 1000 players during its highest peak time, so the community is still small. You can't expect them to have a support team bigger than 2 or 3 people right now.

    Even big publishers fail at support, that has nothing to do with the rest. For instance I'm still waiting for a solution on a problem I have with a Ubisoft game and I contacted support in January!
  • TommeTomme Posts: 152
    edited May 2015
    We need VAC!

    I will probably get hate for this but why does everyone praise VAC so much? It does not have a great track record in non-Valve games and even then only recently in Valve games.

    Please take into account how much control the developers have over the anti-cheat software; VAC might have a very long procedure of developer submitted solutions over other anti-cheats for all we know.

    I am no way saying Xigncode is superior bit there is many factors at play which need to be taken into account.
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    Tomme wrote: »
    We need VAC!

    I will probably get hate for this but why does everyone praise VAC so much? It does not have a great track record in non-Valve games and even then only recently in Valve games.

    Please take into account how much control the developers have over the anti-cheat software; VAC might have a very long procedure of developer submitted solutions over other anti-cheats for all we know.

    I am no way saying Xigncode is superior bit there is many factors at play which need to be taken into account.

    I agree with you. Especially when the way VAC works is that they let the system detect cheats and then bans cheaters in waves after a while of letting the know cheat and cheaters run loose. I'd rather have a system like xign that immediately blocks known hacks than VAC that lets cheaters enjoy their cheat...
  • MustangMustang EnglandPosts: 161
    edited May 2015
    MissMurder wrote: »
    Actively looking into solutions and improvements. We have people dedicated to this.
    I'm pretty sure you're not naive enough to not have considered the negative connotations of this all or nothing balls to the wall blazing approach combined with a jovial attitude towards such a serious issue, to me it just smack of contempt towards your playerbase.

    Everytime I've raised the issue the response has always been along the lines of "that's not supported", "preventing cheaters is more important than supporting legitimate players", "sorry for your loss", etc. This is a terrible approach, the Internet may never forget, but don't give them(/us) every reason not to.

    Remember when every website had a captcha to prevent spambots? Terrible UX, guess what, the web community evolved to tackle the problem in silent, invisible and unobtrusive ways to their customers. To me this is a perfect comparison to anti-cheat, yet somehow you're stuck in the technology of 10 years ago. Players are used to integrated technologies and stuff just working with other stuff, and rather than just allowing them to get on with it you make them hit a brickwall and label them a cheater.

    * By you/you're I'm referring to the publishers/developers as a whole, no personal hate for you MissMurder.
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    Mustang wrote: »

    Remember when every website had a captcha to prevent spambots? Terrible UX, guess what, the web community evolved to tackle the problem in silent, invisible and unobtrusive ways to their customers. To me this is a perfect comparison to anti-cheat, yet somehow you're stuck in the technology of 10 years ago. Players are used to integrated technologies and stuff just working with other stuff, and rather than just allowing them to get on with it you make them hit a brickwall and label them a cheater.

    * By you/you're I'm referring to the publishers/developers as a whole, no personal hate for you MissMurder.

    You're oversimplifying how an anti-cheat works. It's much more complex than a captcha system. Also, if you want an anti-cheat program that works preventively you're bound to get false positives. Only a program working to block known cheats can effectively allow the passage of all non cheats programs, but such a program is always behind and you get a game full of cheaters.

    Again I believe that if you can't play the game as is, then you shouldn't be playing it. Tough life. Also, what you may not consider a cheat, could very well be an unfair advantage. Keeping the game in a vanilla state for everyone ensures overall balance and fairness for all.
  • NailNail Wpg, CanadaPosts: 3,192
    @Lumi you're missing the point, xignpoop is kicking people for things totally unrelated to cheats and missing hundreds of well known hacks that get advertised in the servers
    moop
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    @Nail No I'm not. I don't think that people should get upset if they get flagged for using a chat overlay, or anything else non cheat related. A game and anti cheat system developped for windows needs to be very broad spectrum and total compatibility is impossible and somtimes not desirable. As allowing certain harmless programs to be used, opens entry ways for easy to program cheats to not be flagged.

    And in the end, if you are using something that gets flagged then stop using it, that's it. You shouldn't get upset by it. Sounds like someone who buys a sofa and then realizes it doesn't fit in his living room and then requests from the manufacturer to built it so that it fits in his/her living room! Doesn't make sense! Either expand your living room or buy another product. Same applies to this, either change your environment to be able to play, or play something else.

    There are over 1000 players playing this during peak hours and not even a handfull of players complaining about false positives. IT just like in engineering can't afford to spend ressources to achieve 100% efficiency (unless it's a life and death situation). So anything close to it is how it's going to be. Again tough life for the few concerned, but it shouldn't be too hard to adapt.

    Now regarding the known cheats that go rampant, from what I've managed to snoop around, seems like some at least use a hacked xign build making them undetected because the very program used to detect them is not being used as it has been highjacked by another one and tricks the game servers into believing the player is still using xign.

    Same type of hacks exist for VAC based games. Nowadays CoD MW2 is full of that one hack that bypasses VAC and its bans, by creating its own forced host closed loop server that still manages to integrate legit players.

    If the servers have no way to verify the integrity of xign, then by using a modified version of it, those cheaters are getting away with it, but this is not a xign problem anymore, this is a level above.
  • If anyone can't play a game without running another program in conjunction with it, and that program gets blocked, they should stop playing said game and allow the developers to lose them as a consumer - that doesn't mean they're really owed anything. If anyone is actually against perma-banning cheaters, they probably cheat.

    In the case of dirty bomb, I don't believe the game is lacking any functionality that third-party software needs to fix, so disallowing any program from interacting with it (bar antivirus software) is entirely reasonable and won't ruin the general gameplay experience anywhere near as much as a lax approach to cheaters would.

    Mustang seems to be running some sort of aimless smear campaign, I don't get it.
  • MustangMustang EnglandPosts: 161
    Not sure who or what I am smearing, but the aim of my "campaign" is to have an anti-cheat solution that detects and thus subsequently punishes cheaters without impacting on non-cheaters.

    When it was first added everyone (SD, Nexon, players) acknowledged that the current anti-cheat solution was less than ideal and that it was just a quick stop-gap whilst they looked into implementing something better.

    Over a year later we're still stuck with the same anti-cheat and it's still punishing regular players.
  • NailNail Wpg, CanadaPosts: 3,192
    xignpoop is garbage, everyone on the planet agrees, except a couple nice Korean folks who need it to feed their families
    moop
  • MissMurderMissMurder Posts: 1,429
    We're still looking into other alternatives for Xigncode. Hope to have an update sooner rather than later.
  • LumiLumi Posts: 1,092
    Mustang wrote: »
    Not sure who or what I am smearing, but the aim of my "campaign" is to have an anti-cheat solution that detects and thus subsequently punishes cheaters without impacting on non-cheaters.

    So you want a miracle program. Anyone in mind? Any game out there with such a solution already?

    Start being realistic about what you want and realize that if your problem would be a common one this forum would be crowed with people complaining about the same thing. Alas, the handful of people encountering an issue are not making that many waves...
  • MustangMustang EnglandPosts: 161
    I've mentioned what I'd do in a few other threads, but I can repeat it here for sure.

    Essentially my thoughts are that it's either very hard/expensive to have a decent but still non-intrusive clientside anti-cheat, so why waste the resources on that when most likely it will just be hacked/emulated and therefore be nullified anyway. I'd like to see efforts focused on a non-clientside detection suite, something along the lines of Battlefield's FairFight and/or CS:GO's Overwatch.

    Sure you can throw in an existing non-intrusive clientside one for good measure, I've seen a few people suggesting VAC, and I certainly haven't ever had any problems with it, unlike XIGNCODE (and PunkBuster), so wouldn't object to this.
  • subtleDollsubtleDoll Posts: 49
    So many hackers in this game ! You should put xigncode in the trash and use a true hack detection ! WTF I've just see an aura LV1 with hack. True hack detection, think about it !
  • ChirsChirs Posts: 43
    Just wondering how config tweaks are viewed by SD, where there are some that get flagged as cheating? Are there any settings to avoid? Thanks.
  • MissMurderMissMurder Posts: 1,429
    @Calico frowned upon. There are configs that give way too much of a leg up
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